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Reviewing our opinions on stats

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Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby Rakumi » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:55 pm

Hey guys. I think this might be a topic some might find interesting to talk about. It is fitting to place it in Roll Call because it is based on the states we create or maybe even those seen in the DC handbook. I would see some people create characters (and applaud them for doing so many character write-ups) and sometimes feel, "that is a great write-up but I would have given him a higher... or a lower...."
Once again... I love that so many people have taken the time to make some many stats for so many characters that we love.

This is not to start arguments or anything but for us to express our opinions on some characters and why we think or feel that way. :D

So feel free to chime in.
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby Rakumi » Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:59 pm

I will start with saying...
I have seen many build-ups of Spiderman. I think many have done a great job on him, but I think he would be more agile than what most stat him at. I view him as the top agile character. I would imagine him setting the bar with an agility of 16-18 and maybe his spider sense bringing his dodge defense up a +2. If anybody has read the DC vol 3 book where they show the character Shiva (I think that is her name), her ability to predict the movement of her enemies gives her a total of dodge 20. Spiderman's spider sense would be similar and with his agility, should be nearly untouchable to ranged attacks. Just my thoughts.
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby Rakumi » Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:04 pm

My thoughts on Wolverine.
Amazing stats from people who have chose to make him. I think he is an awesome character and many have done a great job on him. I always imagined him though to be one of the best fighters ever. Maybe this is just because I like him a lot for that category, but I would have imagined him with a fighting 17-18 (especially given all the wars he has been in and various training over the years) and having hand to hand and his claw attacks pushing attack levels of +20 or more (similar to how batman has a +20 in unarmed hand to hand).

Just my thoughts. Well keep up the good work you dedicated writers/creators. :)
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby cbwjm » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:30 pm

Rakumi wrote:I will start with saying...
I have seen many build-ups of Spiderman. I think many have done a great job on him, but I think he would be more agile than what most stat him at. I view him as the top agile character. I would imagine him setting the bar with an agility of 16-18 and maybe his spider sense bringing his dodge defense up a +2. If anybody has read the DC vol 3 book where they show the character Shiva (I think that is her name), her ability to predict the movement of her enemies gives her a total of dodge 20. Spiderman's spider sense would be similar and with his agility, should be nearly untouchable to ranged attacks. Just my thoughts.


Giving Spider-man an extra high agility and dodge of 20 sounds good, however this is limited by the trade offs in M&M. If he has a high dodge then his PL would increase in order to get his toughness up to a high enough level. I can't recall the PL of each build but I believe I have seen many at PL 11. If Spider-man had a dodge of 20 then he would need to be PL 12 minimum for a toughness of only 4 which is a little light in my opinion since he does have low-level superhuman stamina.

I checked a build in J-Mart with a stamina of 7, that would bring his PL up to 14 if he has a dodge of 20.

I expect to see some long debates following, debates that could rage on forever. #ComicNerdRage
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby Jabroniville » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:16 am

I think the base stats can be held to less of a high standard by assuming that the heroes use a lot of their Advantages to modify caps- any Spidey build should have Defensive Attack and Evasion, while Wolverine should have All-Out Attack. This can modify the caps beyond their smaller levels, so you don't always have to amp it up to the high-teens.

Wolverine often comes across as a worse fighter than many other martial artist-types, because he takes a ton of fatal damage... then Regenerates from it. Wolvie is the KING of taking a beating, then coming back to win.

And like cbwjm says, putting Spidey to a +18 Dodge/Parry makes him WAY high in Power Level. Spidey is GOOD, but almost no one would put him over PL 12 (and PL 11 is the typical one from what I've seen)- he loses to way many jobbers for that.

Such high levels also prevent the heroes from taking shots from the usual newbies who realistically shouldn't be that great at fighting.
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby hs5ias » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:24 am

I've done builds of nearly all of the characters in the DC Handbook, and a fair few more besides. I've done fewer Marvel builds as I read a lot more DC.

I've upped the stats and PL of a few characters when doing my own builds.

I've pumped up Aquaman to PL14, making him a lot stronger. When wielding the Trident of Poseidon he is PL16, as that is supposed to be an artifact of immense power.

My Atrocitus is PL15. He is supposed to be a terror of the cosmos from all I have seen. Related to this my default, run-of-the-mill Green Lantern is PL14. Each is supposed to be a mighty champion of good and justice after all, capable of protecting an entire space sector.

My Big Barda is PL14. I've upped her to JLA levels as she is the former leader of the Female Furies and in the books she is very often referred to as one of the mightiest warriors around.

Likewise I've upped the power levels of Power Girl and Supergirl by 1 PL each. With Power Girl it's a bit of fandom, as she is my favourite character. With Supergirl I've brought her stats more into line with those of other Kryptonians, with whom she has always shown she can hang.

I've jiggered Lady Shiva's stats such that without her Body Reading power she is 'only' PL12. Still an incredible fighter but to reach the level she has she does rely on a super ability.

My Talia is PL10 and now a master martial artist and assassin, capable of taking on notable heroes.

I've elaborated Metallo. He is PL15 against Kryptonians, but effectively drops to PL12 against everyone else due to Limit (only Kryptonians) on some of his powers.

I've upped Starfire to PL13, greatly increasing her Strength and Blast power. She is now much closer to a Kryptonian in power.

I've increased Jade a bit to PL12, bringing her a bit closer to her father. I'm not sure whether I should up her to PL13. Maybe.

I've also made some systematic alterations to the stats given out. I've reduced the Strength and Stamina scores of many characters according to the following schema:
Strength
0 Ordinary man, fit woman
1 Fit man, strong woman
2 Strong man, very strong woman
3 Very strong man, peak woman
4 Peak man (no ordinary woman can reach this level)

Stamina as above, but women are not held to a value 1 below that of men.

As a convention in my builds I've limited how much Fortitude defence can be raised. No character can have more than 4 points allocated to it. I don't allow characters to be that resilient over their Stamina score. This has also had the advantage that I've been able to bump some characters Will defence up. My Batman now has a Will defence of 16.

I've also sought to harmonise builds, making them more mutually consistent in how they depict characters. One way in particular is to carefully distinguish between powers and ability scores. My Superman has his massive Strength score as a power, rather than as an ability. I've also altered his defence scores. My Superman has a Fort defence of 18, but only a Will of 12. He does get mind controlled a fair bit.
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby Rakumi » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:31 am

I guess I think of things like, some characters are the pinnacle of certain categories or stats. I was surprised to see such a character like Lady Shiva in the DC books (I never heard of her before) and see she surpasses even Batman in hand to hand combat as well as having the highest level defense I have seen. Now I know for DC, Batman is the staple for top fighter which is why he has the highest fighting of a "hero" as well as hand to hand that equals the DC soft cap of 20 (which signifies the best of the best in a stat, like Flash's speed or Doomsday's strength). So in Marvel, I always imagined Spiderman to take the cake as the top agile character and Wolverine as the top fighting character (though I know Wolverine does not always display this, but I think this is in do to the fact he know he can take a hit so why try so hard.)

I would imagine Characters like Wolverine (maybe even Sabretooth) push that line to at least equal Batman. I know I do not know much about Batman as some do, I use to always think he was a step below that fighting level and more matching say Punishers, but I see that is not the case. But I always use to imagine Characters like Wolverine who was made to fight for so many years to be even better (or at least equal based on the soft cap of 20).

Just my thinking. :)

Anybody have any thoughts on some other characters? I never knew Bane had such high fighting as well. He rivals Batman's fighting.
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby Rakumi » Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:42 am

hs5ias wrote:
I've jiggered Lady Shiva's stats such that without her Body Reading power she is 'only' PL12. Still an incredible fighter but to reach the level she has she does rely on a super ability.



I was curious about this character so it is funny you mention her. Is her ability to read movement super natural or just human level but incredibly accurate based on her fighting skills as a talent?
I am amazed at her stats of attack and defense.
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby hs5ias » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:36 am

Shiva's ability isn't supernatural, but it is an unusual ability unique to her genetics. She's sort of a savant prodigy for body language. Her daughter Cassandra Cain (Batgirl) inherited this ability from her and it was intensified by her brutal upbringing by the assassin David Cain.
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Re: Reviewing our opinions on stats

Postby Jabroniville » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:09 am

I think the closest comparisons to Lady Shiva or Batman in the Marvel Universe are guys like Iron Fist, Shang-Chi, Captain America and others- Logan is a step below. He's never really been a full-on "Martial Artist" as much as "Berserker Warrior"- many a martial artist has been shown to tag him pretty regularly. He generally wins because he's stronger and tougher than normal (the claws to a TON of damage- he probably does more flat-out damage than anyone in his fighting-ability class short of Danny Rand), and because KEEPING him down is nearly impossible.

Granted, I have my own Master Power Level List with my own impressions of everybody's stats. And in general, going by comparative stats is better than assuming everyone uses the same set. It's like... when I throw down someone's bonuses, I compare them to other guys' to make sure everything reflects the tiers shown in the comics as best as possible.

Even the official stuff tends to compare characters in PL to each other- one of the chief issues I noticed in the Official DCA builds is that their PL 12 Batman requires a HUGE boost for his entire Rogues Gallery, turning guys who are barely above normal athletic humans in the comics into elite super-fighters.
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