Jab's Builds: Fear Lords, Dark Man, DC's Thriller, The S-Men

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Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds: Raven, Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kyle Rayner

Postby Jabroniville » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:41 pm

GL PLs are a weird thing, because at one point they're SUPER tough and fight right alongside Superman, but the next they're struggling against a Sinestro Corps member with like three weeks of experience. Kryb handled FOUR OR FIVE Lanterns by HERSELF, and it took trickery and tactics to defeat her, for example.

Kyle as a solo Lantern actually appears more powerful than most other variants of Kyle, except of course for Ion (he used his GL energy to throw a net construct around HALF THE MOON- of course, Wonder Woman did the same thing with her... Jet goo?). Once he had to fit into a team scenario again, he was just another one of the "Good Lanterns" like John, Guy & Kilowog. Below them were the recurring types like Soranik, Isamot Kol & that rock dude. Then there was the armada of Jobbers who would get startled and drop everything (set up by my builds with the "Low Will Save" Complication), thus getting skooshed immediately. Especially under Johns, who killed about fifty Lanterns per Event Story.

Regarding Liberty Belle's strength, it's one of those hard things to determine, as DC was never as good about showing approximate levels of lower-tier Strength than Marvel was (Where you could generally compare a guy to Spider-Man or The Thing and find somewhere to put them within reasonable limits)- she's tough enough to stand twenty feet from Damage's explosive power and be merely injured instead of dead, but I can't recall her ever actually using her strength to topple someone. I put her in that "Donna Troy Vague Range". She was certainly not super-strong as a Titan, so they maybe dropped some of the early JSA stuff- she had to find her spiritual "totem" or whatever to gain it in the later JSA version.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Raven, Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kyle Rayner

Postby Jabroniville » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:58 pm

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JOTO (Isaiah Crockett, aka Hotspot, Slagger)
Created By:
Dan Jurgens
First Appearance: The Teen Titans #1 (Oct. 1996)
Role: Blaster
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans
PL 8 (124)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+8)
Deception 4 (+6)
Expertise (Computers) 3 (+7)
Persuasion 4 (+6)
Perception 4 (+5)
Insight 4 (+5)
Ranged Combat (Fire) 4 (+8)
Stealth 3 (+6)

Advantages:
Ranged Attack 2, Teamwork

Powers:
"Heat Powers"
Senses 1 (Infravision) [1]
"Projectile Blast" Blast 8 (Feats: Split) (17) -- [18]
    AE: "Ignition Touch" Damage 8 (8)
Flight 5 (60 mph) [10]
Heat Aura 5 [20]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Ignition Touch +8 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Projectiles +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +3, Fortitude +5, Will +5

Complications:
Enemy (The H'San Natall)

Total: Abilities: 46 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 3 / Powers: 49 / Defenses: 14 (124)

-Joto was one of the best of the "Jurgens Titans", at least in terms of getting later play (he even showed up in the Cartoon and One Year Later as "Hot Spot"!). As I've said before, the deal with these mid-90s Titans was that, with the main series dead, there was this alien race called the H'san Natall (yeah, how'd this series fail to take off with THAT as the big bad?...) and they impregnated a bunch of humans, and their super-powered children were supposed to help them take over the world. Because every hero in Earth was trembling at the thought of Joto, Prysm and Fringe coming their way. With the aliens defeated (and Joto doing a short-term stint as a dead kid), Joto (who changed his name after it came out that "Joto"- Swahili for "heat"- is an anti-gay slur in Spanish) entered Comic Book Limbo, reappearing much later with more powers.

-Most of the mid-90s Titans were pretty low-end by design, being fairly weak superhumans with little experience. Joto reflects this, being an under-pointed PL 8 back in his original form, though he's a very smart kid (he was in college despite being 16). Few Skills or Advantages to his name, and his powers were pretty weak: a touch-range power that could burn things, infra-red vision, and a projectile blast that could fire his own super-heated projectiles (providing he wore a special Wrist-Launcher Device). For Joto's later appearance, he's probably still PL 8, but added a Flame Aura and Flight giving him a full PL 8 build with a couple points over the recommended Points-Per-PL.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Raven, Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kyle Rayner

Postby Yeoman » Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:41 am

Jabroniville wrote:Once he had to fit into a team scenario again, he was just another one of the "Good Lanterns" like John, Guy & Kilowog. Below them were the recurring types like Soranik, Isamot Kol & that rock dude. Then there was the armada of Jobbers who would get startled and drop everything (set up by my builds with the "Low Will Save" Complication), thus getting skooshed immediately. Especially under Johns, who killed about fifty Lanterns per Event Story.


Eh, that was more that Johns man-crush on Hal Jordan is visible from orbit. No one is allowed to be better than Hal. Even guys with demonstrably better stunts than anything Hal has ever done.

The worst part of it is... Johns tends to write Hal as a womanizing man0child incapable of holding any job other than being Green Lantern. And, so far as I can tell, sees that as Hal's selling point. meanwhile, Green Lantern the Animate series, uses that exact same characterization. But there? Hal is a likable protagonist. Because those are his character flaws that he needs to overcome.

But, hey, personally, my favorite Kyle moment was during Morrison's run, where friggin' Dream of the Endless notes that Kyle is the greatest of Green Lanterns specifically because he knows fear. He knows it, and has had to overcome it.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kyle Rayner, Joto

Postby Jabroniville » Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:11 pm

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ImageImage

TERRA I (Tara Markov)
Created By:
Marv Wolfman & George Perez
First Appearance: The New Teen Titans #26 (Dec. 1982)
Role: Geokinetic, The Judas
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans
PL 12 (191)
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 13 (+16)
Persuasion 6 (+9)
Intimidation 4 (+7)
Investigation 2 (+4)
Expertise (Mercenary) 4 (+5)
Perception 5 (+7)
Insight 4 (+6)
Stealth 4 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Earth) 4 (+11)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Benefit (Markovian Princess), Fearless, Improved Critical (Earth Attacks) 2, Improved Initiative 3, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5, Seize Initiative, Startle, Taunt

Powers:
"Suffocating Snare" Affliction 10 (Strength; Hindered, Vulnerable & Dazed/Immobile, Defenseless & Stunned/Incapacitated) (Feats: Reversible) (Extras: Ranged, Cumulative, Extra Condition +2) Linked to Blast 6 (Extras: Concentration Duration) (59) -- [86]
    Dynamic AE: Snare 12 (Feats: Obscures Senses, Reversible, Dynamic) (Extras: Perception-Ranged) (Drawbacks: Requires Earth -1) (50)
    Dynamic AE: "Area Snare" Snare 11 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Shapeable) (45)
    Dynamic AE: "Earth Control" Move Object 13 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Perception Range) (Flaws: Limited to Earth) (27)
    Dynamic AE: Burrowing 8 (Feats: Dynamic) (9)
    Dynamic AE: "Toss Sand" Dazzle Visuals 8 (Feats: Dynamic) (17)
    Dynamic AE: "Earth to Mud" Environment 5 (Feats: Dynamic) (Impede Movement 2) (11)
    Dynamic AE: "Groundstrike" Affliction 12 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Ranged, Area- 60ft. Burst +2) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery, Limited to Grounded Targets) Linked to Blast 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2) (Flaws: Limited to Grounded Targets) (43)
    Dynamic AE: "Shockwave" Damage 10 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Flaws: Target Must Be Grounded) (11)
    Dynamic AE: Earth Blast 11 (Feats: Dynamic) (Feats: Extended Range 2) (25)
    Dynamic AE: "Flinging Boulders" Blast 8 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Multiattack) (25)
    Dynamic AE: "Stone Shape" Transform Stone to Stone 12 (Feats: Dynamic) (25)
    Dynamic AE: "Stone Shield" Create 10 (Feats: Dynamic, Innate) (Extras: Continuous) (32)
    Dynamic AE: Flight 4 (30 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Affects Others) (Flaws: Platform) (9)
    AE: Magma Blast 11 (Feats: Indirect) (Extras: Perception Range) (35)
"Stone Shields" Enhanced Advantages 5: Defensive Roll 5 [5]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Suffocating Snare +11 (+10 Ranged Afflicton & +6 Ranged Damage, DC 21 & 21)
Snare +11 (+12 Ranged Affliction, DC 22)
Area Snare +11 (+11 Ranged Affliction, DC 21)
Groundstrike +12 Area (+12 Ranged Affliction & +10 Ranged Damage, DC 22 & 25)
Earth & Magma Blasts +11 (+11 Ranged Damage, DC 26)
Flinging Boulders +11 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +3 (+8 Stone Shield D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +7

Complications:
Secret (Spy)- Terra is not a super-heroine at all, and her backstory is mostly a lie- she is actually an agent of The Terminator, and seeks to give up the Titans to him.
Responsibility (Sociopath)- Terra is insane, and can be driven into a furious rage with just the right amount of antagonizing. She once nearly killed Changeling because he taunted her during a practise battle (and this was while under cover), and finally went completely bonkers when she tought The Terminator had turned on her (he was being controlled by Jericho). She went so fully-nutso that she brought the H.I.V.E. Headquarters down on herself.
Enemy (The Teen Titans)- Terra despises the Titans for their goody-goody nature, stating "I just want to kill 'em all". She carries a special enmity for Raven, who nearly sniffed out Terra's secret with her empathic powers, and demanded that she be the one to bring Raven in.
Relationship (The Terminator)- Tara & Slade Wilson are TOTALLY getting it on, despite her being sixteen and him being an old man. You may commence shuddering.

Total: Abilities: 42 / Skills: 46--23 / Advantages: 17 / Powers: 89 / Defenses: 18 (191)

-Oh, Terra. Such a beautifully done storyline. Marv Wolfman frequently comments with absolute glee how easily-led the comics fans of the 1980s were. See, the Titans at the time were always being compared to the X-Men, and Wolfman was often accused of ripping them off (Chris Claremont even denied the link- he merely stated that both books were once lower-tier runs now made popular with new creative teams). So he realized that by adding an awkward-looking teenage girl to the Titans, she would be compared to the sweet-natured awkward-looking Kitty Pryde, who had debuted only a few months earlier in "The X-Men", and fans would automatically assume she'd turn out the same.

-By introducing a mouthy, ignorant, physically-flawed (buck teeth, flat-chested and short) girl onto the Teen Titans, he realized that fans would quickly grow on the little brat as an endearing sort of funny character, thus making it a perfect storyline when she's revealed as a spy all along, working for the man trying to capture them for the H.I.V.E. ("Not a traitor" Marv points out, "because she'd been working for Slade THE ENTIRE TIME"). She acted like a snot, but the youngest Titan Changeling took a liking to her, and they had an adversarial flirtation that resulted in Gar falling head over heels for her. Meanwhile, Raven was the only one who had her doubts, but because she could not trust her own powers (due to Trigon's growing control over her), she could not be sure. For MONTHS fans refused to believe that Terra was actually evil all along, and searched for reasons and excuses why she was just being used by The Terminator. Never mind that in her last moments, she absolutely went INSANE with rage, trying to smash up her boyfriend, the Titans, and the entire H.I.V.E. base, merely because she was pissy and fooled into thinking Slade had betrayed her.

-To say this story had repercussions for years is an understatement. The team never recovered from the "betrayal", always wondering if the next new member would be another one. Changeling especially was messed-up, falling in love with the rebellious young girl quickly, and he went into Terra-like bouts of rage at the Terminator frequently until they finally had a man-to-man about it. Some people criticized Wolfman for basically stating that Terra was insane and thus "by fault of no one but herself" was a rotten person, who deserved her fate, but hey- it was the early 1980s, and it's not like people go "well you have to forgive The Joker & Carnage, because they can't help being nuts".

-Anndddddd of course they brought her back. Well, sorta. Marv was smart enough to make this some parrallel universe/clone dealie, so it didn't crap on the initial story, but we had this weaker, wussier, less-interesting Terra II running around Titans pages for a while. She eventually got killed by Black Adam of "52" to the cries of none, at which point we got a new Amanda Conner-drawn ultra-chesty dark-haired cutie instead.

-Terra is a dominant, terrifying PL 11-12 build, mainly because she's got incredible range, can demolish an entire base in a few rounds, defend herself adequately, and hit an entire team with her attacks. While kicking around on the Titans, she was more of a PL 9 or a 10, but that was all fakery: this is her pure, unadultered form. Note that she's physically a wimp, however, and Gar Logan was able to trounce her in melee by Form-Shifting over and over again (at one point knocking her face into the snow by Beaver-Tailing her into it). Without her Stone Shield, she's basically an easy target, but her range meant that most of the Titans could never even get close to her. Also, she's one HELL of a liar- I mean, she's so good at lying that she kept DICK GRAYSON (P.S. Slade should totally know who Batman is if he's not stupid, since Terra told him all the Titans' Secret I.D.s) in the dark as to her motives. Though that's a good point on Deception in Comics versus Deception in Games- in the comics, bluffs nearly ALWAYS work. In M&M terms, it's basically like the heroes failed 9 million Insight Saves in a row as they knew this character for months. One hell of a GM Fiat.

-Terra II is basically the same character, minus most of the Skills & Advantages, and a dramatic power-down to PL 10.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kyle Rayner, Joto, T

Postby Jabroniville » Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:23 pm

Image

TTC: That’s when Captain Marvel, Jr. became a Titan.

DJ: Yes. And I gotta tell you, it came out of nowhere and surprised the hell out of me. One of the things I’ve always felt happened – and I think I’m right about this – is somehow, in the formative years of how the Internet related with comic publishers, somebody mounted a helluva write-in campaign for Captain Marvel, Jr., [and] they got their way.

TTC: So how did you approach incorporating Captain Marvel, Jr. into the team?

DJ: I think the toughest thing, whenever you have to try and take anyone from the Marvel family and work them into any kind of DC continuity, is how the hell do you make it really try and make sense? To me, that’s the toughest one of all, and I’m not sure that, in retrospect, I ever felt comfortable with Captain Marvel, Jr. occupying that slot for us. You can try all the explanations of talking worms and tigers and everything else that you want, but there’s just a barrier there. I have always felt this. There’s just a barrier there that makes it very difficult to make it work.

-- Dan Jurgens, earning the eternal enmity of Ares.


CAPTAIN MARVEL, JUNIOR (Freddy Freeman, aka CM3, Shazam)
Created By:
Ed Herron & Mac Raboy
First Appearance: Whiz Comics #25 (Dec. 1941)
Role: Flying Brick, Kid Sidekick
Group Affiliations: The Marvel Family, The Titans, The Outsiders
PL 11 (194)
STRENGTH
14 STAMINA 14 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 5 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Deception 3 (+4)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 4 (+4)
Perception 4 (+9)
Persuasion 4 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Thrown Objects) 5 (+8)

Advantages:
Interpose, Luck, Ranged Attack

Powers:
"The Wisdom of Solomon"
Enhanced Advantages 8: Beginner's Luck, Benefit (Voice in Head), Eidetic Memory, Jack-of-All-Trades, Languages 3 (Many), Well-Informed [8]
Enhanced Skills 2: Arcane Lore 2 (+2) [1]

"The Strength of Hercules"
Power-Lifting 5 (12,000 tons) [5]
Enhanced Advantages 2: Fast Grab, Power Attack [2]

"The Stamina of Atlas"
Impervious Toughness 13 [13]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Great Endurance [1]
Immunity 5 (Fatigue Effects) [5]

"The Power of Zeus"
"Shazam Lightning Bolt" Damage 14 (Flaws: Side-Effect- Transforms into Freddy Freeman if He Fails a Dodge Save) [7]

"The Courage of Achilles"
Immunity 2 (Fear Effects) [2]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Ultimate Will Save [1]
Enhanced Will Check 2 [2]

"The Speed of Mercury"
Flight 14 (32,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (28) -- [30]
    AE: Speed 13 (16,000 mph) (13)
    AE: Quickness 13 (13)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) [2]
Enhanced Advantages: Takedown 2 [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Shazam Bolt +8 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +14 (+7 Impervious), Fortitude +14, Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Fighting Bad Guys)
Involuntary Transformation ("Captain Marvel!")- Freddy Freeman must say the magic phrase to transform into Captain Marvel Junior. Similarly, he will transform back if he says it again. This is not always a good thing, considering that the words are PART OF HIS CODENAME. Freddy is a crippled boy with unimpressive stats (ST -1, STA 0, AGI -2, FIGHTING 2, AWA 1).
Power Loss (Lightning Bolt)- Freddy must speak to call down the Lightning.
Responsibility (The Wizard)- Shazam often gives the Marvels their marching orders.
Relationship (Billy & Mary Batson, Partners)- Freddy has a thing for Mary (usually), and looks up to The Big Red Cheese.
Responsibility (The King)- Freddy is a HUGE Elvis fan (since the real-life King was a CM Jr. fan). He comes across as a bit old-fashioned and dorky to others.
Enemy (Captain Nazi)- Freddy was crippled by Captain Nazi, who also murdered the boy's grandfather. Therefore, there is a great personal enmity there.
Enemy (Marvel Rogues)- Guys like Black Adam, Doctor Sivana, Mister Mind and other goofballs made up the majority of The Marvel Family's Rogues Gallery.

Total: Abilities: 96 / Skills: 20--10 / Advantages: 3 / Powers: 81 / Defenses: 4 (194)

-Captain Marvel Jr.'s run on the Teen Titans was a standard short one for The Atom's two-year run as team leader, as he didn't really do much, despite being the team's heavy hitter. That's par for the course for the poor kid's career though, as he's never had a big run since the 1940s. Freddy is one of the early Kid Sidekicks, being given to Marvel as a "Kid Focus" type (much like Robin), and was given his powers after Captain Nazi murdered his grandfather and crippled the boy- Billy Batson offered to share, given that he's such a nice guy and all. Freddy soon got his own book, and his tales were told in a darker, more serious tone than the elder Marvel's (an odd reversal, actually). He was popular (the '40s were BIG for the Marvel Family), but his book got cancelled in 1953 along with the rest of the Fawcett Comics line when DC sued them for ripping off Superman (why this took that long to get through, I'm not sure).

-Freddy was basically a minor footnote of a character from that point on, but he had an effect on pop culture in that Elvis Presley himself was a HUGE CM Jr. fan, and based both his iconic haircut and his elaborate sparkly costumes off of Freddy's costume. Freddy reappeared in the 1972 when DC acquired the rights to The Marvel Family, and a decade later he was retconned out by the Crisis, reappearing in 1995 as the brother of Kid Eternity (another Golden Age character). It was at this point that he got added onto Jurgen's Titans run by a fan vote (Jurgens blames a conspiracy of write-ins), taking the nickname "CM3" to avoid the complications of his name causing him to revert to his normal identity. It was relatively unpopular (he had a thing where he flirted with Argent, but stuff over his secret I.D. caused a ruckus and nothing came of it).

-After this, Freddy was just "Some Guy", a plot complication that left a Superman-class being flying around the DC Universe without anything to do, since he was the third-tier character in a Family that was no longer being published with any regularity. It's kind of... uncomfortable for writers to have all these guys kicking around, because when it comes time to write an event story, part of you wonders "hey, aren't there like a dozen people who can lift thousands of tons? Why aren't THEY helping?" And so you get a lot of scenes where Freddy's just "that blue guy lifting that thing behind Captain Marvel as they explain what the MARVEL FAMILY is doing during this big crisis". He got a brief run in that HORRIBLE 2000s "Outsiders" series, but it went nowhere.

-Freddy got a big part in "The Trials of Shazam!", written by Judd Winick- an updating of the story, Freddy became the new... "Shazam" (thank you, Marvel Comics & Copywrite Law), replacing a powerless Billy now that Shazam himself (the Wizard) was dead. Then Billy turned into the Wizard and... I don't really care. That story sounds stupid. It's like... DC puts SUCH a half-assed effort into promoting Captain Marvel HIMSELF, that I can't even really call it worthy of being half of an ass. It's more like a quarter-assed effort. And Freddy gets at-best an eighth of an ass of effort out of DC, by comparison.

-Freddy is in an odd place Power Level-wise, seeing as how he's one of The Marvel Family and thus SHOULD be a top-tier Flying Brick, and yet he's hardly ever been afforded any kind of serious respect regarding Power Feats or Good Showings or whatever the Battleboard fans call it these days. So in the end, I see him as yet another in that crowded area of PL 11 Powerhouses, along with Supergirl (Matrix version), Superboy (Connor version), Mary Marvel, Wonder Girl (Cassie probably ended up here at some point), and whoever else DC has added while I wasn't looking. He's powerful enough (with Power Attack) to hurt Superman just a little bit, and tangle with any A-lister for a short period of time, but a concentrated effort would put him out, especially with "only" +14 Toughness. Also, he COULD possibly have Life Support, but much like Thor, the Marvel Family's immunity to the ravages of space depends entirely on the writer.

-And WOW does the "DCA" official build have a high Power Level- PL 14 for both Mary & Freddy, which is only ONE lower than Billy or SUPERMAN, and two higher than Kara Zor-El or Superboy. Personally, I'd put Supes & Capt. Marvel at PL 14-15 (possibly/probably a bit lower than their LOSH counterparts like Superboy & Mon-El, who operated under Pre-Crisis conditions), with the Kid Sidekicks all a few notches lower- PL 11-12.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Kyle Rayner, Joto, Terra, Captain Marvel J

Postby Sidious » Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:10 am

I agree with their power level being to high. I would put Freddy and Mary around Superboy and Supergirl pl's and maybe Cap at or slightly below Superman (flagship character and all).

They've missed out of several big chances to promote the Big Red Cheese and Family. The latest one being the whole New Krypton thing. I understand the logic behind using Mon-El but Billy could have had a HUGE jumping off point there and kept a solo title running from it.

Biggest thing I can think of is Billy, Freddy and Mary have all been stuck at the 15-13 yr old age for what? 60 some odd years now? I liked when they aged up Freddy in Trials of Shazam, they should be doing that with all 3 Marvels just to keep them relevant. Billy and Freddy should be college age by now with Mary off doing her power junkie thing they pulled out for her to become Black Mary.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Kyle Rayner, Joto, Terra, Captain Marvel J

Postby Yeoman » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:27 am

The semi sequel to the JLI aged Mary up to her mid to late teens where she was sharing an apartment with Fire. But I don't think that was canon.
\
But all that's gone now anyway.

Outside of Reboots, we actually have seen the old teen and kid superheroes age over the years. The original New Mutants and Kitty Pride are all in the early twenties now, the Older Members of Power pack are shown as being in their late teens. Heck, some of the New Teen Titans were probably pushing 30 before they got erased.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Kyle Rayner, Joto, Terra, Captain Marvel J

Postby Spectrum » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:30 am

Yeoman wrote:The semi sequel to the JLI aged Mary up to her mid to late teens where she was sharing an apartment with Fire. But I don't think that was canon.


... where was Ice during all of this?

Sorry, fanboi moment.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Kyle Rayner, Joto, Terra, Captain Marvel J

Postby Kreuzritter » Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:52 pm

Spectrum wrote:
Yeoman wrote:The semi sequel to the JLI aged Mary up to her mid to late teens where she was sharing an apartment with Fire. But I don't think that was canon.


... where was Ice during all of this?

Sorry, fanboi moment.


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Re: Jab's Builds: Kyle Rayner, Joto, Terra, Captain Marvel J

Postby Spectrum » Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:19 pm

Oh..

.. that lacks potential.

Then again, having the ice maiden on ice brings up a few other jokes.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Kyle Rayner, Joto, Terra, Captain Marvel J

Postby Jabroniville » Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:33 pm

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Oh God! An adorable, sweet-natured Good Girl AND a skanky Bad Girl?! My heart can't take the strain!!

MARY MARVEL (Mary Batson, aka Mary Bromfield, Captain Marvel II, Black Mary)
Created By:
Otto Binder & Marc Swayze
First Appearance: Captain Marvel Adventures #18 (Dec. 1942)
Role: Flying Brick, Girl Version of Hero, Good Girl
Group Affiliations: The Marvel Family, The Super-Buddies
PL 12 (209)
STRENGTH
14 STAMINA 14 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 6 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 1 (+5)
Deception 3 (+6)
Persuasion 4 (+7)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 2 (+4)
Perception 1 (+7)
Insight 1 (+7)

Advantages:
Defensive Attack, Interpose, Luck, Ranged Attack

Powers:
"The Wisdom of Solomon"
Enhanced Advantages 8: Beginner's Luck, Benefit (Voice in Head), Eidetic Memory, Jack-of-All-Trades, Languages 3 (Many), Well-Informed [8]
Enhanced Skills 2: Arcane Lore 2 (+4) [1]

"The Strength of Hercules"
Power-Lifting 5 (12,000 tons) [5]
Enhanced Advantages 2: Fast Grab, Power Attack [2]

"The Stamina of Atlas"
Impervious Toughness 13 [13]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Great Endurance [1]
Immunity 5 (Fatigue Effects) [5]

"The Power of Zeus"
"Shazam Lightning Bolt" Damage 14 (Flaws: Side-Effect- Transforms into Mary Marvel if She Fails a Dodge Save) [7]

"The Courage of Achilles"
Immunity 2 (Fear Effects) [2]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Ultimate Will Save [1]
Enhanced Will Check 2 [2]

"The Speed of Mercury"
Flight 14 (32,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (28) -- [30]
    AE: Speed 13 (16,000 mph) (13)
    AE: Quickness 13 (13)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) [2]
Enhanced Advantages: Takedown 2 [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Shazam Bolt +9 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +14 (+7 Impervious), Fortitude +14, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Fighting Bad Guys)
Involuntary Transformation ("SHAZAM!")- Mary Batson must say the magic word to change into Mary Marvel. Similarly, she will transform back if she says it again. Mary is a normal girl with unimpressive stats (ST 0, STA 0, AGI 2, FIGHTING 2, AWA 2).
Power Loss (Lightning Bolt)- Mary must speak to call down the Lightning.
Responsibility (The Wizard)- Shazam often gives the Marvels their marching orders.
Relationship (Billy Batson & Freddy Freeman, Partners)
Enemy (Marvel Rogues)- Guys like Black Adam, Doctor Sivana, Mister Mind and other goofballs made up the majority of The Marvel Family's Rogues Gallery.

Total: Abilities: 108 / Skills: 12--6 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 81 / Defenses: 10 (209)

-Mary Marvel (figured I'd stat her, since she's almost identical to Freddy) was introduced after Billy & Freddy were, and is one of the first Distaff Counterparts in comic books- a girl version of the main hero (and she's also one of the earliest powerful female heroes). Based visually off of Judy Garland, she got her own comic by 1945, and led to the creation of Supergirl a few years later. She vanished along with the other Marvels for decades, and got booted from continuity by the Crisis alongside Freddy, reappearing in 1994 along with him, soon gaining a white version of the costume instead of the standard red. But along with the other Marvels, she was just a minor background character, rarely getting the limelight. Poor Mary could only watch as Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Donna Troy, Starfire & others all eclipsed her on the DC side, and even MORE females on the Marvel Comics side! Hell, DC not only has too many Flying Bricks, it has too many FEMALE Flying Bricks- WW, Supergirl, Donna, Wonder Girl, Miss Martian, Power Girl, and MORE!

-Then they did the whole Black Mary thing where she turned evil, which made her look ULTRA hot, then ULTRA stupid as they changed the costume a SECOND time, into one of the stupidest atrocities ever committed to paper. She was gonna be on the updated Johns/Eaglesham/Ross JSA, but was cut at the last minute along with Atom Smasher. Really too bad, since Mary had the potential to be the classic cute old-fashioned type of heroine that guys could STILL be into... but NO, comics has to be full of cranky-pantses and Bad Girls. Us Good Girl lovers need love too, dammit! Where are all the Bettys in this world of Veronicas? *sob*!

-I figure Mary as a bit better overall than Freddy, but not by a lot- as Black Mary, she seemed to be a LOT more powerful, as in-story she was handling TONS of heroes at once- but turning evil automatically makes you better at everything (plus she was getting an in-story boost with some new magical powers). Originally, she had the grace of Selena, strength of Hippolyta, skill of Ariadne or Artemis, beauty of Aurora or Aphrodite and wisdom of Minerva, but they soon switched it to the original SHAZAM benefactors.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kyle Rayner, Joto, T

Postby Ares » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:02 pm

Jabroniville wrote:TTC: That’s when Captain Marvel, Jr. became a Titan.

DJ: Yes. And I gotta tell you, it came out of nowhere and surprised the hell out of me. One of the things I’ve always felt happened – and I think I’m right about this – is somehow, in the formative years of how the Internet related with comic publishers, somebody mounted a helluva write-in campaign for Captain Marvel, Jr., [and] they got their way.

TTC: So how did you approach incorporating Captain Marvel, Jr. into the team?

DJ: I think the toughest thing, whenever you have to try and take anyone from the Marvel family and work them into any kind of DC continuity, is how the hell do you make it really try and make sense? To me, that’s the toughest one of all, and I’m not sure that, in retrospect, I ever felt comfortable with Captain Marvel, Jr. occupying that slot for us. You can try all the explanations of talking worms and tigers and everything else that you want, but there’s just a barrier there. I have always felt this. There’s just a barrier there that makes it very difficult to make it work.

-- Dan Jurgens, earning the eternal enmity of Ares.


Nah, my eternal enmity is reserved for people like Dan DiDio and Geoff Johns who have intentionally screwed over the Marvel Family, rather than guys like Dan (who just didn't get the character) and Judd Winick (who was under orders at the time).

I just will never understand why some writers think that DCU is somehow 'too serious' for the Marvel Family. The Marvel Family fought Nazis, dark gods, demons, supervillains and aliens of all kinds. Yes, they're all 12-15 year old kids with Superman class powers. Yes, one of their villains is an evil alien worm and they have a talking tiger as a supporting cast member.

So the F*** what?

The Flash has a city full of talking gorillas, Superman has an enemy who is trickster imp from another dimension in a derby and a guy in a plaid suit called the Prankster, The Green Lantern Corps have sentient squirrel and dog as a member, and one of the heroes of the DCU is Uncle Sam.

It just seems like, for whatever reason, those elements make sense while some of the Marvel Family stuff doesn't. It's asinine.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kyle Rayner, Joto, T

Postby Ares » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:06 pm

Jabroniville wrote: He was popular (the '40s were BIG for the Marvel Family), but his book got cancelled in 1953 along with the rest of the Fawcett Comics line when DC sued them for ripping off Superman (why this took that long to get through, I'm not sure).


Mainly because Fawcett kept winning the lawsuits DC tried to levy against them. Judges kept ruling in Fawcett's favor, and this was a DC Comics that had shut down several other Superman imitators. It's just that once the 50's hit and it was just Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and the Marvel Family, and DC kept pursuing more legal action, Fawcett decided that the age of superhero comics was over and retired, agreeing to not publish anymore Marvel Family stuff ever again and closing shop.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Kyle Rayner, Joto, Terra, Captain Marvel J

Postby Ares » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:11 pm

Sidious wrote:Biggest thing I can think of is Billy, Freddy and Mary have all been stuck at the 15-13 yr old age for what? 60 some odd years now? I liked when they aged up Freddy in Trials of Shazam, they should be doing that with all 3 Marvels just to keep them relevant. Billy and Freddy should be college age by now with Mary off doing her power junkie thing they pulled out for her to become Black Mary.


Yeah, but by the same logic, Superman and Batman should both be old men, instead of being in the same early 30's age they always tend to be.

The Marvel Family being younger heroes is pretty important to their mythos, otherwise you lose something if they become just another batch of 20 something heroes. The easiest way to do it is to just have had Billy start out when he was really young, and gets aged up to 15-16 during the time it takes for Dick Grayson to go from Robin to Nightwing. Because Dick isn't going to be getting out of his late 20's by that point.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Jericho, Jesse Quick, Kyle Rayner, Joto

Postby Wyld0007 » Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:29 pm

Jabroniville wrote:Image
ImageImage

[b]TERRA I (Tara Markov)



didn't Terra levitate and fly on big boulders (platform)?

nice builds. please keep up the great work. :mrgreen:



any chance you might do some Elseworlds or What If like builds once you finish up your current runs?

i would love to see your versions of vampire Batman and/or even vampire Wolverine from one of those old What If issues. or What IF Pr. X found the Cyttorak Gem and became Juggernaut? those would be some fun builds to see from an experience builder like yourself.

i know these types of characters are limited in their exposure, but i just like the idea of seeing Batman or Superman with a GL ring or Silver Surfer with the Carnage Symbiote. and you seem to be exposed to quite a bit of comics and may be familiar with some of those cool concepts.


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