Jab's Builds: Fear Lords, Dark Man, DC's Thriller, The S-Men

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Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds: Whizzer, Menace, Nighthawk, Arcanna, Hyperion

Postby Jabroniville » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:23 am

Image

REDSTONE (Michael Redstone)
Created By:
Mark Gruenwald & Paul Ryan
First Appearance: Squadron Supreme #9 (May 1986)
Role: Super-Powerhouse, Hyperion's Opposite Number
Alternate Company Equivalent Of: No one specific
Fate: Died after being separated from the Earth
Group Affiliations: The Redeemers, The Squadron Supreme
PL 12 (128)
STRENGTH
16 STAMINA 13 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+7)
Deception 5 (+5)
Expertise (Survival) 6 (+6)
Insight 4 (+4)
Intimidation 10 (+10, +12 Size)
Perception 3 (+3)
Stealth 2 (+2)

Advantages:
Daze (Intimidation), Diehard, Fast Grab, Fearless, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Interpose, Power Attack

Powers:
"Natural Size" Growth 4 (Str & Sta +4, +4 Mass, +2 Intimidation, -2 Dodge/Parry, +1 Speed) -- (12 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [9]
Power-Lifting 4 (50,000 tons) [4]
Protection 2 (Extras: Impervious 17) [19]

"Super-Strength Feats" (AE of Strength Damage) [3]
    AE: "Groundstrike" Affliction 12 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery, Limited to Ground) Linked to Damage 12 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst) (Flaws: Limited to Objects) (16)
    AE: "Line Strike" Affliction 12 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery, Limited to Ground) Linked to Damage 12 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (Flaws: Limited to Objects) (16)
    AE: "Shockwave" Damage 12 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Flaws: Both Grounded) (12)
Offense:
Unarmed +7 (+16 Damage, DC 31)
Groundstrikes +12 Area (+12 Affliction, DC 22)
Shockwave +12 Area (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +5 (DC 15), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +15 (+9 Impervious), Fortitude +13, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Ego)- Redstone is supremely arrogant about his power, and wants desperately to directly fight Hyperion, the mightiest of the Squadron. He refuses to believe anyone else is a challenge to him. For some reason ("because of how he was raised" was Hype's theory), he also dislikes women, and doesn't take orders kindly from them.
Weakness (Draws Strength From the Earth)- Unbeknownst to even him, Redstone is fatally-vulnerable to leaving the Earth's surface. As soon as the Squadron's ship left the Earth's atmosphere, he swiftly was drained to miniature size, all his muscle mass disappearing. He died before he could even get back to the planet's surface. If airborne for any reason, it is likely that Redstone will lose some degree of physical strength.
Vulnerable (Mind Control)- The Squadron Supreme have proven themselves very easy to take over mentally for some reason as it has happened several times. This may be random chance, or an actual weakness.
Secret (Mole)- Redstone is secretly a member of The Redeemers, a team brought together by Nighthawk to join the Squadron, and destroy it's Utopia Program from within.

Total: Abilities: 54 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 9 / Powers: 35 / Defenses: 14 (128)

-Redstone was a centrepiece of the Redeemers faction, a giant Native American found to betray the Squadron. He was so central to their battle that he ended up spending the whole of it grappling with Hyperion in a full-nelson, shockingly holding him there, allowing the others (Inertia & Lamprey) to steal his powers. That's pretty much the extent of him (though that IS impressive), and later writers wrote him up as a kind of Antaeus figure (Greek Myth Nerd Altert: That's the giant that Herakles/Hercules fought and killed after discovering his invincibility was limited to when he was touching his mother Gaea- the Earth, that is), where he died an ignoble death upon an outer space adventure. Poor guy- among the more pointless deaths in "Death of a Universe".

-Redstone's an A-level Powerhouse, breaking the PL limits of the rest of the Squadron aside from Hyperion himself, but only as far as his Strength goes- He's PL 11.5 Unarmed, PL 11 with his Parry, and PL 10 with his Dodge. He was strong enough to hold the slightly-stronger Hyperion back (he had him in a powerful lock from behind, and I statted him up like a true-blue grappler with Power Attack, whereas Hyperion was unused to going all-out), and it was strongly implied he was WAY above even guys like The Thing or Colossus. So he comes up pretty cheap compared to his PL as a result, but he'd be pretty lethal in combat.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Menace, Nighthawk, Arcanna, Hyperion, Reds

Postby Jabroniville » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:19 am

OK, since I'm just about done (only Lamprey is left, unless I forgot to post someone), I figured I'd mention something about the Squadron- these guys are abuot the best possible test of a Create-a-Character system's overall capabilities. You've got:

-Inertia, who can steal damage from others and throw it at other people.
-Quagmire, with a hugely elaborate, choking, blinding snare that sticks to everyone and everything.
-A Superman-class guy in the Marvel Universe (which doesn't have that many... or didn't. Thanks, Sentry), prone to their own rules and regulations.
-A guy who can steal the powers of a half-dozen people at once, while also doing Bishop-style Energy Absorption.
-Remnant, guy with an array of Magic Carpets.
-Pinball, who turns into a ball that runs people over.
-Moonglow, a super-illusionist (an uncommon power-set).
-Two super-scientists, one of whom is a dwarf, and the other is a legless ape-woman.
-And Foxfire, who creates a weird shapeable disintegration power.

-All together, it's a bunch of stuff you have to think on, play with, and construct using powers that would almost never be used otherwise. It tested 2nd Edition, and it tests 3rd Edition, and I honestly think the new stuff works out just as well, if not better (Affliction is a dream for Quagmire's build). Inertia's power was a little trickier now that Absorption is different, but the rest all work out better, I think. The Squadron is fantastic fun to build, and it's almost kinda poopy that I now have to wait until 4th Edition to do it again :).
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Menace, Nighthawk, Arcanna, Hyperion, Reds

Postby Jabroniville » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:40 pm

Image

LAMPREY
Created By:
Mark Gruenwald & Bob Hall
First Appearance: Squadron Supreme #5 (Jan. 1986)
Role: Power Thief, Psychopath, The Hyena, Chaotic Evil Villain
Alternate Company Equivalent Of: Parasite (power-draining parasitic enemy of the world's most powerful Paragon)
Fate: Drained a half-dozen heroes, but overloaded on Dr. Spectrum's Power Prism and exploded into tiny pieces.
Group Affiliations: The Institute of Evil, The Redeemers, The Squadron Supreme
PL 12 (291), PL 13-14 (291) with Power Thievery
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Aerobatics 4 (+8)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Deception 6 (+6)
Intimidation 10 (+10)
Perception 6 (+6)
Stealth 2 (+6)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Chokehold, Daze (Intimidation), Diehard, Evasion, Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Drain) 2, Improved Initiative, Improved Hold, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 10, Seize Initiative,

Powers:
"Standard Powers"
Flight 6 (120 mph) [12]

"Energy Absorption"
Immunity 20 (Energy Damage) (Flaws: Limited to Half Effect) [10]
"Absorbed Blast" Blast 10 (Extras: Reaction) (Flaws: Fades) [20]
Senses 5 (Detect Energy- Ranged, Acute & Analytical, Tracking) [5]

"Power Thief"
Affliction 14 (Fort; Fatigued & Powers Impaired/Exhausted & Powers Disabled/Incapacitated & Transformed to Powerless Being) (Extras: Cumulative, Extra Condition) [42]
Variable 16 (Flaws: Limited to Touched Subjects) [96]

(Example Powers: Hyperion's- Strength 9, Power-Lifting 4, Stamina 3, Protection 4. Impervious 19, Flight 5- 61 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Power Thief +10 (+14 Affliction, DC 24)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +8, Fortitude +10, Will +4

Complications:
Vulnerable (Mind Control)- The Squadron Supreme have proven themselves very easy to take over mentally for some reason as it has happened several times. This may be random chance, or an actual weakness.
Power Loss (Thievery)- Lamprey cannot affect the energy of Quagmire's Darkforce Goo.
Weakness (Over-Doing It)- If Lamprey uses Extra Effort to boost his Power Thievery, he runs the risk of over-doing it and exploding from the sheer energy.
Responsibility (B-Modded Villain)- Having been Behavior Modified by the Squadron, the ex-Institute of Evil members are unable to break the law for any reason, betray any Squadron member for ANY reason, etc. Their minds are no longer truly their own.
Reputation (Psychopath)- Lamprey is completely nuts, and attempts to kill any decent people around him for the sheer fun of it.
Responsibility (The Utopia Program)- The Squadron has founded a program designed to cure all the world's ills- Crime, Poverty, Disease, War... even Death itself. Some members are more dedicated than others, but they all strive to help.

Total: Abilities: 56 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 22 / Powers: 185 / Defenses: 12 (291)

-Lamprey is among the few Instituters who really reflect a DC character- he's clearly based off of Parasite. He's the token "crazy, animalistic guy" of the Squadron universe's villains, though he's a bit of a subversion in that he's a power & energy leech instead. He actually became sort of cool once he'd been B-Modded and loyal, since he was powerful and still liked to mess people up pretty bad, becoming an ideal anti-hero. The fact that he was one of the only Institute guys who didn't look totally stupid helped a bit, too. But once he'd been un-brainwashed... yeah. I'm amazed he even held himself back long enough for the rest of the team to betray the Squadron. It made Nighthawk look rather foolish for including THIS crazy bastard in his line-up- his body-count was ridiculous (Blue Eagle & Pinball were both killed as a direct result of his actions, and he would have done a lot worse if given the chance). In the final battle, he was ludicrously powerful, draining powers left and right (he killed Blue Eagle by draining his anti-grav system and just letting him drop), including helping drop the big guy, Hyperion. He met his end as all evil villains do, however, when he bit off more than he could chew, trying to drain Dr. Spectrum's Power Prism on top of Hype's powers, and he ended up doing the classic 'eyes glowing with energy' form and blowing up in the nearby mountains. The final blurb regarding his fate stated "all of body not yet recovered".

-Lamprey is a lethally powerful character, having a terrifying Affliction that can drop HYPERION in a couple rounds (it Fatigues AND De-Powers people), as well as stealing a swack of power. A LOT of power, too- he went from hero to hero in the final battle, de-powering everyone in sight while building his own stat-block of doom. It allows him to absorb 80 points worth of traits at it's base. He can ALSO steal powers with the standard "Absorption" trick, sucking up a bunch of Future-Bots' energy blasts and firing them right back. He can detect energy at an Acute enough level to tell the Good Hyperion from the Evil one (though his B-Modding him prevented him from "betraying" a Squadron member to the others), and can likely track people using it as well. This is a HUGELY expensive combo, which results in the most expensive character in the entire series. It fits his overall danger level, though he's MUCH weaker on his own, without any other powers added, though it still takes a double-punch from Amphibian AND Power Princess to take him out. Lamprey is DANGEROUS, people!
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Menace, Nighthawk, Arcanna, Hyperion, Redstone

Postby Jabroniville » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:43 pm

OK, so I'm gonna start listing all the Best & the Worst character in comics in a few days (I've got some more builds to post in the meantime- mainly Marvel villains stuff), but I need some help getting the criteria down to a science. If you can think of any type of category I've left out, then let me know. Or if you think something shouldn't count, etc. I kinda need an extra category for "Best Characters".

THE WORST COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS EVER:

Characters will be judged on the following criteria, as many examples of how to suck I can think of, each on a scale of 1 (could be argued they don't count, but they kinda do) to 3 (no question- horrible example of this). There are eleven Traits of Suck in total, four of which are weighted by a factor of two instead of one. Added up, they will be divided from a total of 45, giving us the Suck Ratio of any given character:

Over-Pushed: Cannot stress this one enough. Characters are supposed to be pushed by the creative team- it's part of their job. But this category is for when those characters the writers love go WAY too far, and they end up cramming them down our throats- people who are pushed far beyond their capability as characters. I doubt as many people would have minded Magog on the JSA except for the fact that the writers WOULD. NOT. STOP. SHOVING THE CHARACTER AT US, putting him on every cover, and giving him his own SERIES, while he was barely a popular character on his own team. Chris Claremont characters tend to get this treatment a lot (it's virtually his most famous trait as a writer these days, sadly). This is weighted by a full 2 points, because after all, nearly any degree of Character Suck can be lessened by that character merely being a one-shot or a mostly-unused character. Star Trek: The Next Generation fans can tell you just how much is sucks when that annoying character (Wesley Crusher, the ship-saving smart wunderkind based off of Gene Roddenberry as a boy) doesn't just save the ship once, but saves it a million times, making no mistakes and proving himself against all other characters.
Angsty: Comics got really bad for this in the 1980s and 1990s. Pathos has always been an important part of comics (Marvel beat the living sh*t out of DC in the 1960s because of this trope, actually), but when characters over-do it with the sad pasts, Rape as Backstory, etc., you get to learn to hate them.
Boring: Some characters are just DULL. There's nothing interesting about them, nothing that sets them apart. Lots of gangs of villains in the '90s have this, lacking true personality. Most one-shot villains (or even recurring D-Leaguers) also suffer from this, having nothing to offer. This is probably the most common case of Character Suck, especially for super-heroes. A great deal of DC's major characters used to suffer from this in the 1960s, and some of them never grew out of it, having failed series after failed series because nobody cared.
Over-Powered: Weighted by two, because I hate Power Geekery in all it's forms. Some heroes can be powerful and get away with it, but SUCKY characters who are too strong? It's linked to Over-Pushing, and also ruins many potential stories, as the characters can do TOO much, and as a result, nothing threatens them and you get a boring plot. Villains who are too powerful often need silly circumstances to defeat them. Fine in moderation, but if over-done, it's absolutely brutal. This category can fill up with either Sheer Power (they fly in to kick everyone's asses), Excessive Powers (ie. too many ass-pulled abilities), or Excessive Skills (like a new character coming in who's a TOTALLY WAY BETTER FIGHTER THAN BATMAN YOU GUYS!!)
Xeroxed: Weighted by two, as it's the most insidious, LAZY form of Character Suck out there. Everything under the sun has been taken from SOMEWHERE- this is true (Star Wars is based off of The Hero's Journey merged with some Japanese movies, and everything else under the sun). But GOOD writers can gather DIFFERENT things together to make an interesting story or, in this case, an interesting CHARACTER. Xeroxing cool characters not only makes for sucky characters, but also devalues the ORIGINATOR. Just look at poor Venom or Wolverine- angry vigilantes with the exact same power-set popped up all over comics in the 1990s, and it nearly ruined both of them (and DID so in Eddie Brock's case). Some Rip-Offs try something original, and often surpass the original (Superman was a partial rip-off of "Gladator", Captain Marvel was a HUGE rip-off of Superman that nonetheless tried several new things with the concept, etc.). Others are huge examples of this, being a mere cookie-cutter copy, meant to duplicate someone else's success without any of the hard work.
Mysterious/Confusing: Not that common, but still pretty lame. Characters often have empty backstories simply because the writers never bothered to add in any. Others are just meant to copy Wolverine's "What are my origins?" schtick whole-hog. Other characters are Mysterious simply because they're way too confusing, with either a half-assed explanation of powers, a poorly-told origin, or too many writers taking a stab at their origins or character, leaving them a big jumbled mess of "What IS this person about?". Characters mashed-up by the Crisis on Infinite Earths suffer from that last one a LOT.
Fanservice: Hot characters are fine, but don't over-do it. Wonder Woman's costume is a LITTLE silly-looking, but still manages to cover most of her ass (if Mike Deodato isn't drawing it). Vampirella, Power Girl and others? That's just embarassing. There are hundreds of pages out there debating this, with apologists defending sexy costumes on women as part of the medium, but I find it a little humiliating to be a fan of a medium that pushes women out like they're whores to be ogled. Sexiness is great, and to be admired. But turning comics into Skinemax or Playboy is something else. I actually consider Penthouse Comix and others to be BETTER about this, because they're at least honest-to-God pornography, and don't actively try to court female readers like Marvel and DC do.
Dated: Some characters reflect their era just a little TOO much. Somebody with a disco theme sticks way too much to the 1970s. Certain characters are clearly Golden Agers, and others reflect 1960s Costume Design without adding ANY modern trappings to it. Guys with claws look like they're from the '90s, as do people with glowing eyes or way-too-big capes. Not just costumes- the Angry Black Man of the 1970s, the Hippie Liberal of the 1960s-70s, and the Punker Street Rat of the 1990s all belong here, regardless of how they look. This is among the easiest tropes to AVOID, by things like Character Development or just a good re-design of the costume. Luke Cage broke out of this trope by wearing simple street clothes instead of his embarassing tiara and yellow shirt. This is often linked to the next trope:
Goofy: Weighted by two- the character is stupid. They either LOOK dumb or they ACT dumb. Characters like this are embarassing to read about, are famously silly, have dumb concepts, etc. They can be quoted as a character who makes comics looks bad. "You read comics? You say they're an adult medium with many great stories? Well what about this super-villain whose powers come from cocaine? Or the guy in the tiara?" Anyone too goofy to get by gets high points here. People with "Lad" or "Lass" in their name, a stupid-looking outfit, a ridiculous personality or concept, etc.
EXTREEEEEEME!: The 1980s and 1990s brought about a new era of Grim 'n' Grittiness to comics, producing great stuff like Frank Miller's Daredevil, Watchmen, and more. But bad writers Xeroxed it, and made some stupid ideas, with constantly gritty characters going way overboard. Guys who gunned down their villains by the dozen, or characters with Blood, Death, Murder, Kill, Axe, and more in their name- Image was BAD for this, and nearly ruined all of comics with it.Similarly, characters who are overly-trendy with "cool" ways go here. The Simpsons exemplified this trope with their "Poochie" character, a trend-hopping "original hound dog from HELL" (Cerberus?) who "gets biz-ZAY".
Stereotypical: Weighted by two, and probably the worst and most unforgiveable thing on here. Thankfully, it's one of the more rare Suckiness Tropes out there in comics, mostly getting stamped out. Plus, comics doesn't have too many foreigners in it at all. Note that it's not just racial stereotyping- nearly every woman Stan Lee wrote in the 1960s was at LEAST a "1" in being a Stereotypical Hysterical Weepy Woman. Some characters are stereotypically Conservative bullheaded ass-tards (a certain Avatar of War), and others are terrible examples of Liberals.

Some have a bit of cross-over (Dated & Goofy go hand-in-hand sometimes... Goofy can go with a lot of things), but that's life.

THE GREATEST COMIC BOOK CHARACTERS EVER:

xxxxx

1) Characters will be judged on the following criteria, as many examples of how to be awesome that I can think of, each on a scale of 1 (could be argued they don't count, but they kinda do) to 3 (no question- great example of this). There are eleven Signifiers of Awesome in total, four of which are weighted by a factor of two instead of one. Many of these Signifiers are blocked by certain Elements of Suck, but others stand apart.

Important (blocked by Over-Pushed): They character is an important part of their world- this Signifier represents the "Footprint" they left on their Comic Book Universe. He's a core member of a super-team, or she's the highest aspect of another type. Being the first of something, the best of something, or having lots and lots of people close to them. It all makes them important. It separates a character with four books and a horde of a cast around them from a character who exists only in their own Limited Series, and doesn't cross-over into the rest of the world. Top-level JLA members, X-Men and solo heroes belong here, whereas short-lived characters and concepts don't. Moon Knight never ventures far outside his own world, and no matter how awesome The Hellions were, they never got farther than their own book. Over-doing it (likely by over-pushing a NEW character as something huge) results in Over-Pushed, and tends to be reversed quickly, or just plain fails because only one writer does it (like with Sage).
Pathos (blocked by Angst): While some characters go too far, it is important to note that an element of pathos is integral to the telling of a dramatic story. Characters with a tragic backstory get epic points here, as well as characters to whom tragedy has made a regular visit. Exceptions include characters that are nothing BUT tragedy and pathos, who often score lower in this, and higher in the Suck Factor of "Angst". Other characters (such as Spider-Man) equal out in both categories, thus getting no points in return.
Multi-Faceted (blocked by Boring): The character needs more than a paragraph to describe their personality and ways, and is often a study in contrasts. Even with generic powers (though interesting & unique ones is a big help), the hero stands out from the crowd, and doesn't have a simple set of generic traits. They could be a peace-loving man nonetheless devoted to fighting evil, and forced to go against himself. A megalomaniacal super-villain who still Thinks He Is Right, and fights for a good cause, no matter the methods. Basically, a fascinating Character Study. They can have multiple stories told about them, carry an issue just by talking, debate others skillfully, and are just plain interesting to look in to. Marvel's wild and whacky 1960s characters, with their flaws, mean streaks and crazy, stand out in sharp contrast to DC's cookie-cutter Big Strong Hero types for this very reason.
Epic (blocked by Over-Powered): In general, the character does awesome things, and has cool feats to his name. Over-doing the power levels of people is a horrible aspect of modern comic-book story-telling, as it invalidates the threats against the characters, and requires being topped and then topped AGAIN over time. By contrast, everyone likes a winner. Spider-Man isn't very powerful, yet has the epic feat of saving Aunt May's life by lifting a crap-ton of wreckage off of his back. Captain America & Daredevil are humans, and have lost to many metahuman opponents, but can kick tons of ninja ass, and have also BEATEN some metahuman opponents. Like Pathos & Angst, they can counter-act each other completely, or one can go over the other. Superman has some of the best feats in all of comics, but is famously powerful, so he evens out mostly likely. The New Mutants were interesting because they were so weak, but that loses them points heavily here. It's honestly just cool to see good characters do awesome things sometimes, and it shouldn't all be pooh-poohed as "Power Geeking", however-much I like that term.
Original (blocked by Xeroxed): Originality is a truly rare trait in all the media, so this stands out as a very big win for a character. It rewards characters who have totally original powers, a unique look, or other things that set them apart. Even things that steal from multiple sources (like Batman, or the Star Wars franchise) earn points here, if they hide their sources well enough.
Influential/Iconic: Related to Originality, but not entirely- not every Original character is Iconic, nor is every Iconic character an Original. See, Wolverine was a take on Timber Wolf, and Batman took various concepts from The Shadow, Zorro and more. But you can not deny either's place on the scale of Trope Codifiers- the character has TONS of copy-cats either way. Direct rip-offs help out a lot, as do a lot of similarly-themed characters. You know how many characters in comics have acute scent, razor-sharp claws (always stated exactly as such), and healing powers? Sure, characters often exhibited such traits BEFORE Wolverine came out, but you know damn well that every single one of these guys since 1978 has been a direct rip-off of ol' Logan. Not just looks or powers, either- Marvel's 1960s period started a boom of people copying the Fantastic Four's "argumentative family" aspect, as well as Peter Parker's "Everyman Teen Hero" concept.
xxxxxxxx: xxxxxxxxx
Relatable: More important in heroes than villains. It's a boon if the audience can see themselves in the characters, particularly in that they have foibles, flaws and an uncertain nature about them. This can falter a bit if the writers make the character suck too hard, or whine too much, as a result of thinking that "Everyman" means "Loser", but is generally a big plus in a character's win column. Batman is more relatable than Superman because he's human and more prone to frailty and personality flaws, but Spider-Man is more relatable than either by far. Teenage characters or deliberate attempts at "Parkerization" (like Kyle Rayner) often score highly here, though a lot of fans dislike them (Mileage tends to vary heavily on this trope). More common to Marvel characters than DC ones, to an absolutely DRASTIC degree.
Relevance (blocked by Dated: Instead of appearing to define their era, this character can fit into any timeline, either by changing to fit, or by leaving them alone. Bob Kane said that the success of Batman was that various writers could play with the idea (making him darker, more serious, goofier, more or less competent, etc.) to fit whatever kind of story needed to be told. Did the characters still work in the Grim 'n' Gritty '90s? Did their stance as moral characters run opposed to darker eras? Would they fit into a future storyline, or be able to be made interesting in the Parallel Universes of "Exiles"? Characters of high-standing and morals (Superman & Captain America) SEEMED to suffer in darker times, but were actually quite effective as opposing forces, and so are surprisingly effective regardless of the time period.
Good Design (blocked by Goofy & Dated): Comics is a visual medium, and so you can not overstate this. Looking like an idiot has cost more than one comic book character their spot in history (if Orion looked awesome, we'd probably STILL be reading New Gods comics), and so awesome, stand-out costumes mean the world. ICONIC is the name of the game here, people. Superman is the codifier for heroics, so he gains top points, as well as anyone showing general good design theory. A lot of the '90s was spent trying to capture this, and they often over-did it (resulting in Goofy & Dated stuff), but characters like Venom, The Punisher and Ghost Rider stand out as looking REALLY cool. Awesome-looking Team Strong Guy types also succeed, as do the more iconic designs of yesteryear that managed to last for a long period of time.
Conflicts & Relationships: The character has other characters dependent upon them, and reflects well against their own cast. Basically, if the character has an AWESOME Rogues Gallery, they belong here. Or just an awesome supporting cast. Or they're a team-player character who has great relationships with the rest of his team (like a Buddy-Buddy relationship, a Love Interest thing, a Rivalry, etc.). Since conflict is the source of drama, it's integral for characters to have a great set-up like this. It was a HUGE failing of guys like Luke Cage & Moon Knight that they had boring Rogues Galleries of terrible villains, and it sank both characters. By contrast, Batman has the most famous villains in all of comics, and Spider-Man has an AMAZING array of recognizable baddies to choose from. Superman loses out as well, having Lex Luthor and then a bunch of nothin'- Toyman, Metallo, Doomsday & Parasite are OKAY, but any one of them would be a third-tier Spidey villain.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby saint_matthew » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:20 am

I agree with everything you just wrote... But i personally wouldn't put Powergirl in to the Porn Costume section. There really isn't anything wrong with her costume, its iconic. Sure sometimes some artists go a little overboard with the boob window, but generally speaking there is nothing fundamentally wrong with how its drawn in contemporary JLA, JSA or her own series; Power Girl.

also i totally agree with your insightfull comments on the subject of

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quite controversial. :wink:

Keep up the good work on the Squadron... I so love to hate them. :lol:

-M
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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby Horsenhero » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:08 am

Nice Squadron builds. Personally, I'm kind of glad you didn't bother with any of the Max imprint interpretations, because aside from powers, they were practically unrecognizable from the originals.

As for the Suckiest vs. Greatest heroes ever....well, despite an effort to make it sort of Actuarial in nature, many of the categories you're using are highly subjective and different people will interpret them differently. It's a lot like figure skating in that way. You can list "Artistic Interpretation" as if it were a measurable, empirical element of the sport, but, in reality, it's about personal appeal. That exact sort of "looks like, but, isn't" can be applied to some of your categories. I mean, already I disagree with you when you call Venom an iconic character. He/it is nothing more than a power-geeky, cheap Spider-man rip-off, mirror image villain. The first in a long line of them, but, being the first cheap, power-geeky rip-off doesn't make you iconic, it simply makes him the first bad idea in a string of bad ideas.

See? problems already and you haven't even started. :twisted:

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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby Woodclaw » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:30 am

Horsenhero wrote:Nice Squadron builds. Personally, I'm kind of glad you didn't bother with any of the Max imprint interpretations, because aside from powers, they were practically unrecognizable from the originals.


I agree, I tried to read a couple of Supreme Powers issues and I found it quite disappointing in the sheer amount of brutality and excessive gore.

Horsenhero wrote:As for the Suckiest vs. Greatest heroes ever....well, despite an effort to make it sort of Actuarial in nature, many of the categories you're using are highly subjective and different people will interpret them differently. It's a lot like figure skating in that way. You can list "Artistic Interpretation" as if it were a measurable, empirical element of the sport, but, in reality, it's about personal appeal. That exact sort of "looks like, but, isn't" can be applied to some of your categories. I mean, already I disagree with you when you call Venom an iconic character. He/it is nothing more than a power-geeky, cheap Spider-man rip-off, mirror image villain. The first in a long line of them, but, being the first cheap, power-geeky rip-off doesn't make you iconic, it simply makes him the first bad idea in a string of bad ideas.

See? problems already and you haven't even started. :twisted:


I agree to this too, taste is too highly subjective (e.g. I liked Cage '90s outfit, the one he used with the Heroes for Hire) and many of those categories are really quite wide as far as interpretation goes.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby Jabroniville » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:29 pm

Of course it's all subjective- that's what makes it fun. I hardly expect everyone to agree with all my points of view- all the categories can be taken one way or the other. I never said Venom was Iconic, though- I said he was devalued by other guys Xeroxing him, and that he looked cool.

So far, the best I can come up with for the last "Greatest" category is "Motivation", where it implies the hero keeps consistency in his motives (or at least has good reason to change them), and always has a reason for doing things. Like Spider-Man's motivation of Guilt, Captain America's of being a symbol and force for old-school values, or Magneto's for being the Mutant Messiah. That sort of thing (that's why there's that blank in the list there, btw).

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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby kenseido » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:34 pm

I know I will catch crap for this, but Wolverine falls into the over-pushed category. They jacked with him so much and his regen suffered from ungodly power creep; that he really turned into a boring character to me.
Early and mid-80s were okay, but then it just went crazy.

Let the flaming begin.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby Horsenhero » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:49 pm

kenseido wrote:I know I will catch crap for this, but Wolverine falls into the over-pushed category. They jacked with him so much and his regen suffered from ungodly power creep; that he really turned into a boring character to me.
Early and mid-80s were okay, but then it just went crazy.

Let the flaming begin.


What flaming? Generally speaking I agree. I don't totally dislike the character and he iconic for his character type, much as Bats, Supes and Spidey, but, I limit my dosage of Wolverine purposely. I also LOVE the treatment he's getting in Young Avengers: Children's Crusade. He comes off as a total douche...as well he should. Of course, I can recognize a character as being iconic and still hate them (I'm looking at you Hulk).

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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby kenseido » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:53 pm

Something about Young Avenger comics that makes all adult heroes look like douches. Every single adult hero that has shown up in one of the Young Avenger comics has looked like a complete douche-bag. Even the ones "on their side."

PS. I dont like the X-Men movies that much because of the way they all centered around Wolverine.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby Woodclaw » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:32 pm

kenseido wrote:I know I will catch crap for this, but Wolverine falls into the over-pushed category. They jacked with him so much and his regen suffered from ungodly power creep; that he really turned into a boring character to me.
Early and mid-80s were okay, but then it just went crazy.

Let the flaming begin.


I usually consider that the good period of Logan last around the time Marvel's boss decided to remove Jubilee as his sidekick. After that they went completly crazy with Logan, up to the point of sillyness.
And I have to say: I hate Wolverine Origins, not the movie the comic-book.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:27 pm

kenseido wrote:Something about Young Avenger comics that makes all adult heroes look like douches. Every single adult hero that has shown up in one of the Young Avenger comics has looked like a complete douche-bag. Even the ones "on their side."

{nods} Same kind of thing as happened with Runaways, although there I always figured it was some kind of curse given what The Pride was into. It would make sense for them to put something into place that would taint all heroes their children met.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby saint_matthew » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:45 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:
kenseido wrote:Something about Young Avenger comics that makes all adult heroes look like douches. Every single adult hero that has shown up in one of the Young Avenger comics has looked like a complete douche-bag. Even the ones "on their side."

{nods} Same kind of thing as happened with Runaways, although there I always figured it was some kind of curse given what The Pride was into. It would make sense for them to put something into place that would taint all heroes their children met.


hope the curse doesn't effect next years Runaways movie. :roll:
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Re: Jab's Builds: Squadron Supreme Done!- Redstone, Lamprey

Postby Jabroniville » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:33 pm

Image

GUARDSMAN I (Kevin O'Brien)
Created By:
Allyn Brodsky & Don Heck
First Appearance: Iron Man #31 (Nov. 1970)
Role: Side Character, D-Level Suit Guy/Inventor
Group Affiliations: Stark Industries
PL 8 (129)
STRENGTH
2/10 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 6 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 3 (+5)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+10)
Insight 2 (+4)
Intimidation 4 (+6)
Investigation 2 (+4)
Perception 3 (+5)
Technology 6 (+12)
Vehicles 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Equipment (Radio), Improved Aim, Ranged Combat 5

Powers:
"Guardsman Armour" (Flaws: Removable) [48]
Enhanced Strength 8 (16)
Power-Lifting 1 (40 tons) (1)
Protection 7 (7)
Flight 7 (250 mph) (14)
Immunity 5 (Radiation, Suffocation 2, Pressure, Vacuum) (5)
"Repulsor Rays" Blast 8 (Feats: Split) (17)
-- (60 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Repulsor Rays +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +6 (DC 16), Toughness +3 (+10 Armour), Fortitude +5, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Being Controlled by Armour)- The Guardsman Armous is slowly driving O'Brien mad, causing him to hate his employer, Tony Stark, and covet Stark's girlfriend Marianne.

Total: Abilities: 54 / Skills: 26--13 / Advantages: 7 / Powers: 48 / Defenses: 7 (129)

-Yeah, poor Guardsman here kinda took it in the pooper as far as character's fates go. He was an Iron Man supporting character- an inventive genius who designed his own suit of armour, and eventually became one of those who knew Tony & Iron Man were one and the same. Despite a pretty cool name, and a rare position as an "Armour Guy" who was an ALLY of Tony's, he went nuts under the control of his own armour, and was eventually killed by Tony during a big scuffle when his power supply went up. He ended up giving his name to a whole LINE of Guardsmen.

-Guardsman I had a pretty good set of armour, but only got a tiny bit of use out of it before he died, so I decided to make him a PL 8- he's below most professional heroes (or even PL 8.5 guys like Stingray, who is similarly not a regular-time super-hero), but he's very much a "Solid NPC with a Kick-Ass Device" type of character who had more potential. With some higher stats and fighting ability, he could be a major threat, but as a whole he was just a Sidekick type to Tony.

-Kevin had a brother, Michael, who attempted to avenge Kevin's death by killing Stark- he also went kinda nuts under the armour's influence, but he got over it. Eventually, Michael became the head of Project: Pegasus (a research facility constantly under attack by supervillains), and Avengers Security Chief. He has the same stats as Kevin, but replaces the Genius aspects with the abilities of a Police Detective (Investigation & Expertise- Police Officer).

---

THE GUARDSMEN (Standard Vault Guards)
Created By:
Steve Englehart, Danny Fingeroth, Mark Gruenwald & Steve Ditko
First Appearance: Avengers Annual #15 (1986)
Role: Heroic Version of Mooks, Sacrifices for Villains
Group Affiliations: The Vault
PL 6 (83)
STRENGTH
2/7 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 5 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Expertise (Guard) 5 (+5)
Insight 1 (+1)
Intimidation 4 (+4)
Investigation 2 (+2)
Perception 3 (+3)
Technology 2 (+2)
Vehicles 5 (+5)

Advantages:
Equipment (Radio, Gear), Ranged Attack 5, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Guardsman Armour" (Flaws: Removable) [36]
Enhanced Strength 5 (10)
Power-Lifting 1 (6 tons) (1)
Protection 3 (3)
Immunity 5 (Radiation, Suffocation 2, Pressure, Vacuum) (5)
"Repulsor Rays" Blast 6 (Feats: Split) (13)
Flight 6 (120 mph) (12)
-- (44 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +5 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Repulsor Rays +5 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +5 (DC 15), Parry +5 (DC 15), Toughness +3 (+6 Armour), Fortitude +3, Will +1

Complications:
Responsibility (The Vault)

Total: Abilities: 24 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 36 / Defenses: 4 (83)

-The Guardsmen were a very big part of Marvel in the 1990s, essentially giving Marvel Comics a legion of semi-super-powered Mooks (from "The Vault" prison specifically for super-villains- the first of it's kind in comics) for villains to mow down in huge numbers. It was effective because their facemasks made it so their deaths were a little less horrific than a uniformed police officer, because we wouldn't have to see their expressions when they died, and they became a little more "inhuman" (similar reasons were made for the Stormtroopers in "Star Wars" or why most fantasy-themed enemies are inhuman Orcs & Goblins). They were just powerful enough to be killed two or three at a time and make it look cool, and it gave alot of stories some significance when Guardsmen showed up en masse to arrest the villain after Spidey beat him up or something. The concept was eventually retired in the mid-90s, after the guys and "The Vault" as a whole were devalued thanks to constant break-outs.

-This is the mass-marketed version of the PL 8 Guardsman Armour. They're not TOO powerful, but have the standard "Iron Man Armour" in it's baby version, making your average well-rounded supporting mook a PL 5.5-6 Fighter/Blaster. Iron Man (at his PL 11-ish 1980s self) manhandled six or seven of them at once. Sure, he had a super-weapon that disabled any of them with a touch, but he acted as if they stood absolutely no chance (their Repulsors "can't hurt" him). They went down in droves to any villain with even the most remote level of power (Hag and Troll? Seriously?), so they're still Mooks, no matter how powerful their armour is supposed to be.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:30 am, edited 3 times in total.


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