Jab's Builds: Fear Lords, Dark Man, DC's Thriller, The S-Men

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Re: Jab's Builds: Red Sonja, Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss Americ

Postby badpenny » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:46 am

I thought Brubaker/Epting's The Marvels Project from 2009/10 was great and had my favorite segment with John Steele. Now, admittedly, I am a freak when it comes to Nazi-era shenanigans and supers and I squeed all the way through Captain America: The First Avenger. Mmm, bakelite.

I will totally get the vapors if Agent Carter comes to fruition. 8)

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Re: Jab's Builds: Red Sonja, Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss Americ

Postby Spectrum » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:30 am

saint_matthew wrote:
Jabroniville wrote:For the most part, Timely's early history was pretty bad- even pro-Marvel books admit this.


An yet they survived while Fawcett Comics went under.... Pretty much puts the truth behind that old saying; "time makes fools of us all."


Wasn't Fawcett basically sued by DC out of existence? Sadly, it seems that 'SHAZAM' or whatever they're calling him to get around trademarks and indirectly the Watchmen are the only things to survive. Both under their biggest competitor, and slayer, DC.

For DC, AOL/Time Warner purchased them as they were going bankrupt. Marvel was a hot property and picked up by Disney to add to brand power. It still amazes me how much more public consciousness Marvel IP has in comparison despite Time Warner being a massive media juggernaut. Really, ask people on the street (we don't count) to name off superheroes, chances are you'll get Batman, Superman, Spiderman and people with Marvel Universe movies. Then again, chances are that they won't be able to tell you which characters go to which universe either.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Red Sonja, Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss Americ

Postby Jabroniville » Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:17 pm

Well, DC has been an utter failure at getting the names of anyone else out there- the only movies they release AT ALL are for Superman & Batman, and the one time they tried something different, they attached it to Ryan Reynolds' soulless, falling star.

Also, DC's scarcely ever been run competently. They were a distant #2 is sales for what, thirty years? It wasn't until the 2000s that they broke even (thanks to Batman books, and resurrecting the Justice League concept, which had poor sales under the beloved Joke Team era, and the "D-League Hero" era). I think they're still about 50/50 with Marvel, as despite the gnashing of teeth over their continuity reboot, the League & Batman still sell like nuts. Actually, looking at last month's sales, Marvel is WAY ahead overall, but DC has all top four books (mostly thanks to a Sandman thing and an Event Story).

Also, WOW did Batgirl ever screw up it's huge lead and all the hype- Gail Simone was a favourite of mine during Secret Six, but HOLY CRAP, as it been at-best average-ish for months. #61 or whatever is respectable numbers, but it's WAY below where it probably should have been. Also, Superman can't sell outside of a team-up book (though I think that's usually been true in recent years). And what in the hell is MOON KNIGHT doing at #16!!?!? I know they just relaunched it (for the 10,000th time... Marvel REALLY wants their own "Batman"), but WOW.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Red Sonja, Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss Americ

Postby greycrusader » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:10 pm

Re Miss America:

Like most obscure, 2nd and 3rd tier Golden Age characters, her particular abilities varied almost from issue to issue, since whomever was assigned to the title that month just basically hacked it out; so she's been everything from a mini-flying brick to a woman who couldn't even really fly, just make tremendous leaps.

Her best showings came under Roy Thomas' Invaders, particularly the last WW II era arc where they went up against a team of rogue American heroes who were aiding the Axis (later retconned to them being under outside mental influence). I'd go with this version, which would modify her stats thusly: +3 to STA score (supposed to be peak human endurance anyway), "Hits Harder Than You Think" : Strike/Close Damage +1, "Adrenalin Surge": Enhanced STR +4, Fades, Only when under emotional duress.

Still only 8.5 Offensively, and that's with the Strength boost; but as I said, she's been shown to have a few strength related feats in the past, and did take some shots from Nazi villains like U-Man and Warrior Woman without getting killed or hospitalized.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Red Sonja, Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss Americ

Postby Jabroniville » Sat Apr 19, 2014 6:04 pm

Weird- Wikipedia includes none of that. What a pain in the ass nothing character.

Hey, can any fans of DC's Thriller (naturally, there are like seven, but still) tell me how good most of the team were at fighting? I know Salvo is good, but what about the reporter guy or the others? Also, could Data ever leave his cyber-car?

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Re: Jab's Builds: Red Sonja, Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss Americ

Postby saint_matthew » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm

Jabroniville wrote:Also, DC's scarcely ever been run competently. They were a distant #2 is sales for what, thirty years?


Yep. Even with the DC reboot, guess who was still second in over all sales? Yep, it was DC, because Marvel bought out AVX & blitzed them on sales.

Jabroniville wrote:And what in the hell is MOON KNIGHT doing at #16!!?!? I know they just relaunched it (for the 10,000th time... Marvel REALLY wants their own "Batman"), but WOW.


The funny thing is that its a terrible book. I'm waiting till issue 3 to review it, but two issues in & there is no story, no supporting cast, no narrative.... Each issue is a one an done.

Jabroniville wrote:Hey, can any fans of DC's Thriller


Hold on a second, MJ was in a DC comic? Or is this a different thriller?
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Re: Jab's Builds: Red Sonja, Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss Americ

Postby Earth-Two_Kenn » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:55 pm

Fawcett Publications existed until it was bought up by Random House in 1982. It simply closed down it's comics division after the lawsuit with National. It re-opened it again and they handled the "Dennis the Menace" comic book from 1958 until 1980.

At the time Fawcett gave up comics, National only had the Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman related books going for their super-hero line (which included Superboy in "Adventure" which kept Aquaman and Green Arrow afloat (helped by the fact that their co-creator was the Superman group editor)). Super Heroes were all but done. Goodman had sent Stan off on another fad. Crime, horror, romance, comedy comics were the order of the day. I can see why Fawcett decided to focus on their other endeavours, like Fawcett Books. It wasn't that Fawcett was unsuccessful. They were tired of being punished for being too successful, and they just lost their golden goose.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Red Sonja, Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss Americ

Postby Jabroniville » Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:48 pm

Image

THE GREAT BEASTS:
-Hm, let's see: Salma Hayek, Christina Hendricks, Helen Hunt surprisingly, Scarlett Johanssen, Susan Sarandon (even NOW), any girl in a Russ Meyer movie...

-oh shit- Great BEASTS! Never mind.

-The Great Beasts are a group of Alpha Flight baddies that are naturally trying to take over the Earth- they're basically a collection of neat-looking John Byrne designs with little personality other than "CONQUER/CRUSH/DESTROY!", and were basically the summation of Byrne's run on the series- where he tried to more or less make something out of a bunch of random character designs and give them something to do. It turns out that one of Alpha Flight's own- Sasquatch- is actually a guy in possession of the BODY of one of The Great Beasts, and that Snowbird is meant to be able to stop them. Conquering Elder Gods is always an interesting thing in Marvel Comics, as there are basically HUNDREDS of beings JUST LIKE THIS, which begs the question as to why there's so many, and how unstoppable they truly are- I mean, it's pretty hard to believe that Thor & The Asgardian Pantheon couldn't properly defend the Earth from these guys- they do that crap ALL THE TIME. Odin can fight GALACTUS for a while! But needless to say, they'd probably demolish a good bit of land before being stopped, so it's probably a good thing that these guys are kept behind a barrier in The Realm of the Beasts.

THE GREAT BEAST TEMPLATE
Created By:
John Byrne
First Appearance: Alpha Flight #23 (June 1985)
Role: Evil Gods, Would-Be World-Conquerors
PL 12 (158)
STRENGTH
14 STAMINA 15 AGILITY -2
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Deception 2 (+4)
Expertise (History) 6 (+10)
Expertise (God) 7 (+11)
Expertise (Magic) 9 (+13)
Intimidation 4 (+6, +12 Size)
Perception 2 (+6)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Daze (Intimidation), Improved Critical (Godly Attack or Unarmed), Power Attack, Startle

Powers:
"Godly Size" Growth 12 (Str & Sta +12, +12 Mass, +6 Intimidation, -6 Dodge/Parry, +1 Speed, -12 Stealth) -- (48 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [25]
Immunity 11 (Aging, Life Support) [11]
Impervious Toughness 15 [15]
Regeneration 10 (Feats: Regrow Limbs) [11]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Initiative -2

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +15 (+6 Impervious), Fortitude +15, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Power & Destruction)

Total: Abilities: 52 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 62 / Defenses: 23 (158)

-Quite the powerful Template, the Great Beasts are essentially PL 12 Giants with ludicrous Toughness scores and knowledge of Myth & Magic.

KARIOOQ, THE CORRUPTOR- PL 12 (207): Transform 12 (Anything to Corrupted Things) (Extras: Continuous), AE: Weaken Stamina 12 [49]
-Kariooq "Corrupts Matter" (whatever that means- he's just there in the backgrounds- he probably either makes stuff into evil stuff or weakens people), but is vulnerable to ice. His worst nemesis: Queen Elsa of Arendelle. Also what the Hell kind of Canadian supervillain is vulnerable TO FREAKING ICE??? That's like a Floridian villain being vulnerable to old people or a douchebag being vulnerable to Axe Body Spray!
Image
TOLOMAQ, THE FIRE BEAST- PL 12 (263): Insubstantial 3 (Fire Energy), Flame Aura 12, Fire Blast 15 (Accurate 4, Penetrating 6), AE: Cone Damage 12, AE: Line Damage 12 [105]
-Tolomaq is a big fire creature.
KOLOMAQ, THE BEAST OF THE SNOWS- PL 12 (239): "Blinding Snowstorm" Environment 10 (Cold 2, Visibility 2), Icicle Blast 12 (Accurate 4) (Multiattack), AE: "Landslide" Earth Control 15 [81]
-Kolomaq is the mortal nemesis of Tundra (another Beast), and was tricked into sealing himself in the Earth by Snowbird (the battle took place over three pure-white pages with dialogue balloons being the only visible thing- Byrne noted that it was called an "artistic decision" and he got paid in full of the three blank pages). He seems unaffiliated with the others, returning separately and being sent back by Talisman. He is the most-savage of the Great Beasts.
Image
RANAQ, THE GREAT DEVOURER- PL 12 (198): "Floating" Flight 2 (8 mph), "Possession" Mind Control 6 (Extras: Possesses Body, Continuous) [40]
-Ranaq is summoned in a storyline based in the past, and has to possess people to inhabit the material world (and would be defeated if they were slain), making him "the weakest of the Great Beasts", according to Shaman. He is killed by a "Magic Bullet" created by a talisman, but is released when the grave of the man he'd possessed is disturbed 100 years later.

Image

SOMON, THE ARTIFICER
Created By:
John Byrne
First Appearance: Alpha Flight #23 (June 1985)
Role: Evil God, Would-Be World-Conqueror
PL 12 (183)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 5 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Deception 8 (+12)
Expertise (History) 5 (+10)
Expertise (Magic) 10 (+15)
Expertise (God) 8 (+13)
Insight 2 (+7)
Intimidation 4 (+8)
Perception 2 (+7)

Advantages:
Artificer (well, it's there in his name), Equipment (Staff), Ranged Attack 2, Ritualist, Startle

Powers:
"Astral Projection" Remote Sensing 10 (Visuals & Hearing) [30]
Shapeshifting 2 [16]
Illusion (Visuals & Hearing) 12 (36) -- [37]
    AE: "Astral Fingernails" Damage 10 (Extras: Perception Ranged +2) (30)
Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Staff +8 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Astral Fingernails -- (+10 Perception-Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Illusion -- (+12 Illusion, DC 22)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +5, Fortitude +7, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Power & Destruction)

Total: Abilities: 66 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 83 / Defenses: 13 (183)

-Somon the Artificer is the master of The Great Beasts, and their most dangerous member, despite being relatively frail himself (Snowbird delivered him a mortal wound, for instance). He can kill people while on the Astral Plane, one of the nastier tricks involving a Perception-Ranged Attack.

Image

TUNDRA
Created By:
John Byrne
First Appearance: Alpha Flight #23 (June 1985)
Role: Evil God, Would-Be World-Conqueror
PL 13 (158)
STRENGTH
18 STAMINA -- AGILITY -2
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+8)
Deception 2 (+4)
Expertise (History) 6 (+10)
Expertise (God) 7 (+11)
Expertise (Magic) 9 (+13)
Intimidation 4 (+6, +12 Size)
Perception 2 (+6)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Daze (Intimidation), Improved Critical (Unarmed, Boulders) 2, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4, Startle

Powers:
"Godly Size" Growth 18 (Str & Toughness +18, +18 Mass, +9 Intimidation, -9 Dodge/Parry, +2 Speed, -18 Stealth) -- (144 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [37]
Immunity 30 (Fortitude Effects) [30]
Protection 2 (Extras: Impervious 9) [11]
Regeneration 10 (Feats: Regrow Limbs) [11]

"Earthquake" Affliction 13 (Athletics; Dazed & Hindered/Stunned & Vulnerable) (Extras: Area- 1,000ft Burst +6, Extra Condition, Reaction +3 on 6 Ranks) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Limited to Grounded Targets) Linked to Damage 7 (Extras: Area- 250ft. Burst +4, Reaction +3 on 4 Ranks) (Flaws: Limited to Grounded Targets) (136) -- [137]
    AE: "Earth Control" Move Object 18 (Extras: Perception Range) (Flaws: Limited to Earth) (36)
    AE: "Giant Boulders" Blast 12 (Feats: Extended Range 2) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (38)
    AE: "Throw Boulders" Blast 15 (Feats: Accurate, Extended Range 2) (32)
Summon Insect Swarms 2 (Extras: 16 Minions +8, Active) [22]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+18 Damage, DC 29)
Earthquake +13 Area (+13 Affliction & +7 Damage, DC 23 & 22)
Giant Boulders +12 Area (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Throw Boulders +6 (+15 Ranged Damage, DC 30)
Initiative -2

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +5 (DC 15), Toughness +20 (+5 Impervious), Fortitude --, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Power & Destruction)

Total: Abilities: 18 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 238 / Defenses: 26 (274)

-Most-iconic of The Great Beasts is Tundra, a gigantic walking landmass that makes the most out of an early-80s' John Byrne's capabilities at harsh, dramatic shading (part of what makes his X-Men run so good). He's basically this big white monster with shading everywhere but his outer edges, making him quite the eye-popping design. He's really no different from the other Beasts in personality- he's a big Destroyer of Things- but he's a LOT bigger and quite a bit more dangerous. Most-lethal is the fact that he can set off massive tremors ANY TIME HE IS INJURED, and more powerful ones as a regular attack.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss America, Great Be

Postby Skavenger » Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:26 pm

Hopping back a few pages, thanks for the Sundown build. He's essentially my Red Guardian despite only having two appearances (it just meant they couldn't ruin him).

As per his origin, I have the issue in question in a box, but the reason Norman Osborn shut the guy's work down was that his photosynthesis serumathingy was "dangerously close" to his Green Goblin formula. He didn't sell it presumably because he was so horrified over what he did when he was out of control, he didn't want it to even be remembered as something hat existed, much less something anybody could get their hands on. Which is too bad, because I think he had an awesome hero/villain name. I always wished they'd introduce him again in Thunderbolts or Secret Avengers or something.

Here's the thing I don't get:

The Green Goblin formula lets you get beaten up by everyone from Spider-Man to Luke Cage to Jessica Jones to...man, I'm sure he jobbed to other people, I just can't think of who. Sundown made a formula that, after it got dumped on him and oh her bad stuff happened, he was an Avengers-level threat who blacked out the sky from Manhattan in a radius out to Queens.

Let the record show that Norman Osborn let one more chance to be a great super villain slip away by not following up on that formula again later.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss America, Great Be

Postby Sidious » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:52 am

Yay The Great Beasts! My favorite group of Deviant Gods. Any plans for Atum the God Eater? He'd be a perfect addition for this run.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss America, Great Be

Postby Jabroniville » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:50 am

Already statted him, actually.

Hopping back a few pages, thanks for the Sundown build. He's essentially my Red Guardian despite only having two appearances (it just meant they couldn't ruin him).
Thanks! It was fun to have a bunch of SUPER-obscure guys to go along with these Forgotten & Semi-Forgotten Marvel characters- I like having done stuff that nobody else had considered. It's kind of too bad that Untold Tales ended up being swept completely under the rug, as Busiek at least seemed to be having fun with it. If you have any more of these guys in mind, just let me know- I'll stick them on the "To-Do" pile.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss America, Great Be

Postby Sidious » Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:28 am

cool hadn't seen him on the front page. Quite a few not posted there I see. awesome builds as always. :)
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Re: Jab's Builds: Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss America, Great Be

Postby Woodclaw » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:41 am

I know I'm no longer a regular poster of this forum, but I just couldn't pass on this.

Jabroniville wrote:OK, I found a copy of the Runaways comic where they fought The Wrecking Crew in a used bookstore, and flipped to the fight to judge it.

Ugh. UGH UGH UGH UGH.

That was the WORST fight scene I've ever read. It's one thing for the Crew to job- that's their preordained role in comics. But even these Jobbers are capable of at least CHALLENGING major super-teams. Eve semi-recently they've fought groups of Avengers or Thunderbolts to a standstill.

This? This was RIDICULOUS. A group of tiny children beat them by barely lifting a finger. One kid turned a guy into chunks casually, and one jobbed to what I think is a standard "Velociraptor". I mean, they treated the Crew like they were a gang of basic thugs. There's jobbing and then there's just making powerful characters look like utter jokes.

Not a fan. Between that and the "team full of children" thing, it's pretty much guaranteed I'll never read that book. Screw The Runaways.


I have to say that I agree with Jab. I only read the first 10-12 issues of Runaways and I consider it an abysmal title. The original series wasn't that bad, but then they had to make them part of the 616 continuity because money and that killed the title for me. What makes the series so bad is that it takes the "kids are right" trope and crank it up to 23 at least. Every vaguely adult character who appeared in Runaways seem to be there just to act like a jerk and give the Runaways one more reason to think that being constantly on the run is a good idea. From Cloak and Dagger, to Cap, to Wolverine, every adult seem to be there just to lock them up or make them behave. It doesn't help that the Runaways are all so fricking confrontational -- even Nico, who is supposed to be the mature one, as far as I can tell.

(P.S. yes I build the Runaways a couple of years ago, but, if look at my comments you'll see that my general sentiments about the series are still the same)

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Now you can count two, Crinos.
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Re: Jab's Builds: Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss America, Great Be

Postby Spectrum » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:46 pm

On Thriller- it was a fun 80s pulp series.

On power level, they were very much on the higher end of mortal+. Salvo would be a match for Punisher. So, I'm guessing roughly 7-9ish?

On Data, nope, he was permanently confined to the very cool car.

Looks like I hit on and really enjoyed another too obscure title.

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Re: Jab's Builds: Black Fox, Whizzer, Miss America, Great Be

Postby Jabroniville » Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:02 pm

Image

CELIA RICADONNA
Created By:
Jimmy Palmiotti, Justin Gray & Khari Evans
First Appearance: The Daughters of the Dragon #1 (March 2006)
Role: Forgotten Villain, Crimeboss
PL 9 (171)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Acrobatics 8 (+13)
Athletics 2 (+10)
Deception 4 (+8, +10 Attractive)
Expertise (Businses) 9 (+13)
Expertise (Criminal) 4 (+8)
Insight 2 (+6)
Perception 1 (+5)
Sleight of Hand 4 (+8)

Advantages:
Benefit 3 (Wealth), Equipment 3 (Swords, Guns), Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
Shapeshifting 3 [24]
"Bio-Electric Fury of... no wait" Blast 10 [20]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Bio-Electric Blasts +8 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +5

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +8, Fortitude +8, Will +5

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)
Secret (Not Actually a Regular Businesswoman)- Ricadonna hides her wealth behind a multimedia company, but is actually a criminal.

Total: Abilities: 94 / Skills: 34--17 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 44 / Defenses: 6 (171)

-Created for a Daughters of the Dragon Limited Series that I had no idea existed, Ricadonna is your everyday would-be Crimeboss With Good Publicity, hiding behind a multimedia empire and dressing in stuff that would give Emma Frost pause. She is captured by Misty Knight after hunting down some Jobber Villains for robbing her, and reappears later to try and kill the heroes off again, this time with some newfound super-powers given by Super-Skrull implants. She escapes when the Heroes For Hire outnumber her, and looks more alien than human in the end.


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