A Community Standard -- PLEASE READ!!!

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A Community Standard -- PLEASE READ!!!

Postby BeZurKur » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:14 am

Current Standards

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The Chris Finney Benchmarks

1:1 skill ratio.  For heavy skilled characters use Super Skill: Extra [stat] to affect multiple skills.



In the Green Ronin vs. Marvel Super Heroes thread, the topic came up of benchmarks and standards. I thought this would warrant its own thread and the communty's input.

There are several conversions and guildlines out on the web that do not mesh with each other. While I don't believe Green Ronin will put out an official benchmarks or guildelines, I don't see why we, the community and players, cannot come up with a semi-official standard.

To start, I propose Chris Finney's Benchmark list. That are other matters that would need considering, (such as PL's and skills points) but first we must know if there is enough interest.

Thoughts???
Last edited by BeZurKur on Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:30 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Old Sparky
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Postby Old Sparky » Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:09 pm

I'm definitely behind this idea and will contribute as much as I can.

I do think, however, we should try to come up with character conversions that really overall fit the characters they are intended to represent and not just match up to the specific perceptions and concepts based on one writer's or another's version. We can always add specific variations based on period and/or writer afterwards.

Also, we shouldn't try to force characters into a specific Power Level, min/maxing Power Point allocations to achieve the closest match to the character within a specific PL. If people want to tone down (or up) characters to suit their own campaigns, then they can do so afterwards.

I'd only recently gotten a copy of Chris's benchmarks (thanks, Chris), but I've taken the time to look them over thoroughly enough to believe accurate Marvel character conversions should be easy --as long as people are willing to be helpful by collectively making decisions about the more questionable abilities of some characters...

...for example, I recently questioned someone assigning a strength to the Thing that would give him a Heavy Load of 100 tons because the old MSHRPG rated the Thing's lifting capacity at around 75 tons. It was noted that the Thing has consistently been able to press 100 tons, which I wasn't really aware of... my first impulse was to argue that by the MSHRPG rules that a 100 ton lift was possible for the Thing by making a Red FEAT strength check, but if he was really lifting 100 tons consistently in the comics it should be set at around 100 tons.

So, people will need to make an effort and contribute their knowledge of characters where needed to make a set of standard Marvel characters work.

So... with whom do we start? :D

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Postby Etherial Ghost » Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:53 pm

I would suggest either Spider-Man, Captain America or Wolverine, as they seem to more or less iconic in Marveldom.

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Postby therealtony » Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:00 pm

I concur about using the Chris Finney Benchmarks..They are great..And while Green Ronin will never put out official benchmarks..Steve Kenson sort of "blessed" the Chris Finney benchmarks. That is good enough for me.

Where to start? Well ...if you want to go with most popular then I would suggest Spiderman.

But! If you wanted start from a cronological perspective I would suggest we begin with Marvel Comics first superheros The Human Torch/Jim Hammond and The Sub Mariner.

I think that would be kind of cool statting out all the golden age characters and working our way up..

lemme know what I can do to help out..

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Postby BeZurKur » Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:51 pm

Spiderman sounds like the way to go, but I'm not that well versed with the friendly neighborhood webcrawler. I have been brushing up on Daredevil, though. I can have a full DD writeup along with sources by the end of the week.

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Postby Brimstone » Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:38 am

Don't forget the M&M stats for the Hulk in the June 2003 issue of Game Trader, I think Erik Mona wrote them but I can't remember.

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Postby Old Sparky » Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:04 am

I hadn't seen that... any idea where I could find it?

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Postby mgg » Sun Jul 04, 2004 1:05 pm

The hulk article can be found in the June 2003 archives of Super Vision magazine (the front page news and announcements on this site)

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Postby Anthony » Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:50 pm

Old Sparky wrote:...for example, I recently questioned someone assigning a strength to the Thing that would give him a Heavy Load of 100 tons because the old MSHRPG rated the Thing's lifting capacity at around 75 tons.


Whereas if you look at feats the Thing accomplishes, and at the real-world weights of items he's dealing with, the Thing can reliably lift upwards of a thousand tons. This is one problem with comic book benchmarks -- the old Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe (which is what the original MSH is based on) basically got the lifting ability of everyone rated above around ten tons wrong. Relative ranking is usually pretty correct, but actual lifting ability is way off.

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Postby Circeus » Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:05 pm

Anthony wrote:
Old Sparky wrote:Relative ranking is usually pretty correct, but actual lifting ability is way off.


Can't the Lifting stunt correct these problems? It IS much less costly than Super-STR itself...

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Postby BeZurKur » Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:33 pm

I don't think that judging strength by how much a character can lift is the best idea. Maximum weight that can be lifted is too ambiguous in comics. I still recall a non-raging Hulk holding up a mountain on his back during the Secret War! Is the figure max dead lift, bench press, overhead press, or carry? Then add hero points into the mix, and the number becomes more liquid -- not necessarily a bad thing. I think the best measure is damage, with lift only getting you into the ball park. If we use the MSHRPG as one of the sources, we keep it consistent. Say Monstrous Damage is about 13-15, then that is what the strength / damage bonus should be. Interestingly enough, that figure would put Uneartlhy at about 16-18 which is where the Game Trade article for the Hulk put his Strength: at +17 total -- Unearthly.

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Postby Old Sparky » Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:42 pm

The Hulk holding a mountain up topic has been covered before in these forums (and many others, probably). The Hulk didn't actually hold up the entire mountain range, he merely braced a small hollow area where the group of heroes were trapped in under that mountain range. He was only bracing that area from collapsing in, and it was taxing him to his limits.

Now, the idea behind working on a set of standards as a community is so that various people can chime in and point out various relevanbt information pertaining to the Hulk's lifting capacity, such as you did, and others can explain discrepencies away as I did so that we ultimately can come up all agreeing with a degree of certainty that his Strength score should be X. And then we can debate other things, such as his level of Protection and Leaping, until we're all in agreement about his various abilities. If enough variation exists between one writer's Hulk and another's Hulk, then they can both be statted out and note which one is which (because various heroes have periods where their powers either grow or change, either temporarily or permanently).

And after the Hulk (or whoever) is completed to the satisfaction of the majority opinion, then we move on to the next character (or characters) in the works and tweak all the bugs and inconsistencies out of the build until everyone agrees on them. Ultimately, we'll have a set of standard characters (and some noteworthy variations where necessary).

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Postby CaptainBroken » Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:44 pm

yea he "pushed" lol
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Postby VIRTUE » Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:48 am

proabbly spent a power point too
ive seen a write up on hulk that says bsides super str he has boost to his str that would help expain that one he was boosted hero point and pushing with his rank probbaly 15 or 20 super str

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Postby CaptainBroken » Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:49 am

your the farm girl
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