Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby Stigger » Thu May 01, 2014 3:36 pm

My own preferences are to take your 4th option there Fuzzy, but that's more my twisted sense of humor than any real belief in it. :D

As to splitting Dexterity into Agility and Dexterity, it makes complete sense to me in general, the same going for Defense being broken up into Dodge and Parry. Honestly, I prefer it that way, since it allows for more varied character concepts that perfectly suit my preferred style. I see it as the difference between having a lot of fine motor control, but not much coarse motor control, and vice versa. I've known plenty of people some variation of that is true of, I know I'm certainly one of them, so I like the notion that I can use the two abilities to differentiate between those. It always bothered me that in most systems, there was never any real distiction between the two. Same goes for Ranged Combat and Close Combat, for largely the same reasons. I just find the 3e system much more precise at the core, without using a lot of cumbersome mechanics to get its point across, which is largely my issue with most d20 systems.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby SilvercatMoonpaw » Thu May 01, 2014 4:35 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:There are people who have to compulsively upgrade.

There are some people who use the version they have access to without having to transport books or computer files around.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu May 01, 2014 6:01 pm

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
FuzzyBoots wrote:There are people who have to compulsively upgrade.

There are some people who use the version they have access to without having to transport books or computer files around.

:-P The D20HeroSRD is indeed handy. I don't think there's anything specifically preventing a 2E one, other than general laziness.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby Superfreak » Thu May 01, 2014 6:44 pm

I said that I remembered a public outcry to separate dex and agility? and for a fighting ability score? and all those other things? Wow, I must have been drunk or smoking crack at the time I said that, because I don't remember that either.

OH WAIT! I did NOT say that. That was just you continuing not to want to listen to others and instead re-cast what they are saying into something they are not saying so that you can then shoot down what they weren't saying to make yourself feel like you were right all along . . .

Anyhoo - here is a link to a discussion about 2E dex that occurred pretty quickly after 2E came out. As you can see, Thanee and others start raising some interesting questions about dex including both hand eye coordination and gross agility, etc. Although it was in the context of some folks lobbying to go back to coupling certain aspects of DEX that had been decoupled, you can see how the idea to decouple further into agility and what it modifies and dex and what it modifies in 3E were already being raised. I have no knowledge that this in fact led to the 3E version, as I imagine it was multiple influences, but I have seen since 1E that the green ronin crew does a good job engaging with the fanbase and pays attention and that out of the engagement and providing a forum for us non green ronin people to engage, we prime the pump on some ideas and at times lead to direct changes.

Here is the link I found in 3 minutes: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13149&hilit=dexterity&start=15
EDIT: as to "Fighting," here is a post where some guy named Monolith appears to be arguing that adding the Fighting ability isn't really a change from 2E to 3E at all, much less that it is a negative change, and instead basically the same as, buying Attack in 2E:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36935&hilit=Fighting
Last edited by Superfreak on Thu May 01, 2014 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Superfreaking Out.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby SilvercatMoonpaw » Thu May 01, 2014 7:11 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:I don't think there's anything specifically preventing a 2E one, other than general laziness.

It's even greater laziness than it seems: you don't need to put the entire thing up, just the parts that differ from 3e.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby saint_matthew » Thu May 01, 2014 7:39 pm

Superfreak wrote:Here is the link I found in 3 minutes: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=13149&hilit=dexterity&start=15
EDIT: as to "Fighting," here is a post where some guy named Monolith appears to be arguing that adding the Fighting ability isn't really a change from 2E to 3E at all, much less that it is a negative change, and instead basically the same as, buying Attack in 2E:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36935&hilit=Fighting


The Search-fu is strong with this one :lol:
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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby Monolith » Thu May 01, 2014 8:17 pm

Superfreak wrote:I said that I remembered a public outcry to separate dex and agility? and for a fighting ability score? and all those other things? Wow, I must have been drunk or smoking crack at the time I said that, because I don't remember that either.

OH WAIT! I did NOT say that. That was just you continuing not to want to listen to others and instead re-cast what they are saying into something they are not saying so that you can then shoot down what they weren't saying to make yourself feel like you were right all along . . .

No. You're the one saying that Green Ronin was secretly monitoring the forum for years gathering feedback for their next edition. I'm the one saying that's bullcrap.

Steve spent years answer 2e questions, both in the orq and on the regular forum. He knew what we were asking and it had nothing to do with most of the changes we see in 3e; not just the few I mentioned as an example. The fact that many of the changes we see in 3e are close to how the rules worked in DC Heroes reflects the fact that Ray Winniger worked on 3e; and he was the developer of DC Heroes. Ray is the commonality to many of these changes, not years of forum posts.

You're trying to do some weird fanboy justification dance. You're trying to say it's not that Green Ronin randomly made big changes to one of their most popular games, but that they did it based on feedback from the forum. There was no big feedback about these things on the forum.Linking to a single thread from 9 years ago that made such a small impact on Steve that he didn't even put those in as optional rules in MaMa is not justification for him changing the core rules years later.

EDIT: as to "Fighting," here is a post where some guy named Monolith appears to be arguing that adding the Fighting ability isn't really a change from 2E to 3E at all, much less that it is a negative change, and instead basically the same as, buying Attack in 2E:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=36935&hilit=Fighting

I never said fighting was a major change. I said no one ever asked for this change on the forum, and thus you can't use your Green Ronin is listening to us even though we don't know it argument.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby HappyDaze » Fri May 02, 2014 4:09 am

I want to like 3e, but since I've owned it, I've played it exactly once and it wasn't really any improvement over 2e. OTOH, I had several dozen sessions of 2e that were quite enjoyable. I think my main issue with 3e is that I just didn't feel that the changes were a real improvement, and just breaking even isn't enough in my eyes for a new edition.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby saint_matthew » Fri May 02, 2014 5:23 am

HappyDaze wrote:I want to like 3e, but since I've owned it, I've played it exactly once and it wasn't really any improvement over 2e. OTOH, I had several dozen sessions of 2e that were quite enjoyable. I think my main issue with 3e is that I just didn't feel that the changes were a real improvement, and just breaking even isn't enough in my eyes for a new edition.


It depends on what you consider to be 2ed & what you consider to be 3ed. If you are talking about just the base line 2E without the Ultimate Power add on book then I would say 3E gives us the diversity of power that 2E was lacking.... However with Ultimate Power, I'd say that they are both comparable, except that 3E's artwork is much MUCH worse.

Personally I do like the splitting up of some of the attributes & the nomenclature changes that separates it from D&D, but I personally don't demand that you do. If you are getting something out of 2E I say go to it & have fun.... That's the main thing after all.
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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby FuzzyBoots » Fri May 02, 2014 5:26 am

^_^ Although, I would argue that the general tenor of the thread suggests that the topic should be titled "Is 3rd Edition better than 2nd Edition?" with the answer being a shaky maybe depending on who you spoke to.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby saint_matthew » Fri May 02, 2014 5:30 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:^_^ Although, I would argue that the general tenor of the thread suggests that the topic should be titled "Is 3rd Edition better than 2nd Edition?" with the answer being a shaky maybe depending on who you spoke to.


An what exactly one means by "better." Its certainly different than 2E, but I'm not sure what one would constitute as "better." Better is very subjective on your expectation of the system. :D
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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby Doresh » Fri May 02, 2014 6:12 am

Yeah, it basically boils down to "pick what you like the most". A lot of the changes seem to be more situated on the "front end" of the system, anyways.

As for the "GR did super secret data-mining for 3e" conspiracy: Really? AFAIK, the developers of 2e were quite open and more than happy to answer questions personally. Why the sudden mysteriousness?
Last edited by Doresh on Fri May 02, 2014 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby Stigger » Fri May 02, 2014 6:18 am

I'd know I'd be more surprised if they weren't paying at least some attention to what was being said on their forums, and reacting accordingly when they felt it had some merit. As others have said, I'd think that a lot of companies who bothered to maintain forums would make use of the resource they're making available.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby Monolith » Fri May 02, 2014 6:25 am

HappyDaze wrote:I want to like 3e, but since I've owned it, I've played it exactly once and it wasn't really any improvement over 2e. OTOH, I had several dozen sessions of 2e that were quite enjoyable. I think my main issue with 3e is that I just didn't feel that the changes were a real improvement, and just breaking even isn't enough in my eyes for a new edition.

Well, as I said above, I like 3e because it's quicker and less complex then 2e. In 3e you have X rank strength so you can pick up something Y weight rank and throw it Z distance rank. Or if you fly X ranks of speed you can cover Y distance ranks in Z ranks of time. Things like that make it just quicker as long as you're not looking for hard-number accuracy. If you're someone who actually cares about tactical map combat and exact distances, weights, and so on then 2e is probably the better game for you.

I just find it odd that a game they worked so hard to streamline ended up going from 1 dex to 2 dex types, from 1 defense to 2 defense types, and so on. It seems like most of the game was streamlined for quicker play but then they decided to get all crunchy on how dex and defense work.
Last edited by Monolith on Fri May 02, 2014 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is 3rd Edition so much better then 2nd Edition

Postby Monolith » Fri May 02, 2014 6:30 am

Stigger wrote:I'd know I'd be more surprised if they weren't paying at least some attention to what was being said on their forums, and reacting accordingly when they felt it had some merit. As others have said, I'd think that a lot of companies who bothered to maintain forums would make use of the resource they're making available.

I'm not saying they don't pay attention to the forum. I'm saying there are have been big topics of discussion on the forum over the years and there are non-issues of discussion. Impervious was an issue that generated hundreds of posts and house rules over the years so I can understand them changing it. But many of these other changes were not things which had hundreds of posts of discussion. The forum was not full of thread after thread of "obscure sucks as an effect and should be removed from the game" posts, and things like that. A lot of the changes were really random and about things that weren't hot topic issues on the forum.


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