Sleep Affliction Feedback

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weirdal
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Sleep Affliction Feedback

Postby weirdal » Fri Apr 11, 2014 3:46 pm

I'm trying to understand the cumulative affect extra of Affliction. I have a player who wants to put people to sleep with a touch, so I figure something like this:

Sleeping Touch: Affliction (Resisted by Will, Impaired and Hindered, Defenseless and Stunned), Extra Condition, Limited Degree.
Or would I say:
Sleeping Touch: Affliction (Resisted by Will, Exhausted, Asleep), Extra Condition, Limited Degree.

Because Exhausted is: Impaired and Hindered and Asleep is: Defenseless, Stunned and Unaware (I figured Impaired would get upgraded to Unaware).

Any advice/feedback would be appreciated! :)

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Re: Sleep Affliction Feedback

Postby JDRook » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:19 am

I suppose you could do it that way, but you're really taking the hard route.

If you read the Affliction section in the Handbook or online on the d20herosrd page, it actually lists 1st, 2nd and 3rd Degree Conditions. Some of the higher degree Conditions are built from two or more lower degree Conditions, but you don't have to combine them yourself. The base Affliction has 3 conditions, one for each degree. The third degree is always the most powerful, will often end the target's ability to instigate combat, and can only be resisted once every minute or longer, unlike the other degrees which can be resisted every round.

A standard Sleep Affliction would be (Fatigue/Exhausted/Asleep), resisted by Fort or Will depending on descriptors and preference, but decided once when built. Affliction is Close Range by default, so Sleep Touch could just be Affliction (Fatigue/Exhausted/Asleep, Resist Will) for 1p/rank. After a successful close attack, the target would resist DC10+Affliction rank vs d20 roll + Will bonus. If the target succeeds, no effect, but failure means one of the conditions based on by how much the roll failed: up to 5 = 1 degree, 6-10 = 2 degrees, 11+ = 3 or more degrees.

Say we have Affliction 9 and the target has Will 8, and assume the touch attack is not parried just to focus on the Effect. The target rolls to resist DC19 but rolls a 5. With +8 Will that's 13, which is 6 less than DC 19, that's 2 degrees so the target takes on the Exhausted Condition. Next round the Afflicter touches again. Again, the target rolls to resist vs DC19 and does better with a 12. Will gives +8, but Exhausted includes Impaired so there's another -2 on the check for a total of 18, which means the target fails again by one degree. However, the target is already Exhausted, so the first degree effect does not stack and effectively does nothing.

If you add Cumulative to that same power you double the cost to 2p/rank, but now the degrees stack. Using the same numbers as above, after the first attack Exhausts the target, the second attack with 1 degree of failure would add on to Exhausted, pushing it to the 3rd degree Condition, Asleep. This is probably what your player wants.
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Re: Sleep Affliction Feedback

Postby Hellhound » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:14 pm

weirdal wrote:I'm trying to understand the cumulative affect extra of Affliction. I have a player who wants to put people to sleep with a touch, so I figure something like this:

Sleeping Touch: Affliction (Resisted by Will, Impaired and Hindered, Defenseless and Stunned), Extra Condition, Limited Degree.
Or would I say:
Sleeping Touch: Affliction (Resisted by Will, Exhausted, Asleep), Extra Condition, .

Because Exhausted is: Impaired and Hindered and Asleep is: Defenseless, Stunned and Unaware (I figured Impaired would get upgraded to Unaware).

Any advice/feedback would be appreciated! :)


The Hero´s Handbook 3rd edition has a default power for Sleep (page 129) wich is a Ranged Affliction resisted by Fortitude for a 2 points per rank. You can remove the range modifier for a 1 point per rank

An would be like this: Affliction (Resisted by Fortitude, Fatigued,Exhausted, Asleep)

In any Affliction with 3 Degrees could be :

First Degree: dazed, entranced,fatigued, hindered, impaired, or vulnerable
Second Degree:compelled, defenseless, disabled, exhausted, immobile, prone, or stunned
Third Degree: asleep, controlled, incapacitated, paralyzed, transformed or unaware

Depends always for the descriptor how the power will function as well the defense use for it.

When you use the Limited Degree Flaw you use two degrees even you can use a single degree like this:

Sleeping Touch: Affliction (Resisted by Fortitude, Asleep) Limited Degree 2 you don´t need the Extra contition for using a Degree
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Re: Sleep Affliction Feedback

Postby JDRook » Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:54 pm

Hellhound wrote:When you use the Limited Degree Flaw you use two degrees even you can use a single degree like this:
Sleeping Touch: Affliction (Resisted by Fortitude, Asleep) Limited Degree 2 you don´t need the Extra contition for using a Degree

I don't think that's how it works, at least not with 3rd degree Conditions, since they introduced a separate Flaw in the Power Profiles for "Limited to 3rd Degree -1". 3rd degree conditions are always the most powerful and usually the focus of the power being built, so I don't think limiting it to that should make it cost far less than half the usual. A better example might be Limited Degree 2 for a first degree condition like Dazed or Impaired. It's debatable whether you could limit it to a single 2nd degree condition, like say Prone, but I think that's more reasonable than a full -2 Flaw for 3rd only.
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Re: Sleep Affliction Feedback

Postby Hellhound » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:08 pm

JDRook wrote:I don't think that's how it works, at least not with 3rd degree Conditions, since they introduced a separate Flaw in the Power Profiles for "Limited to 3rd Degree -1".


I don´t have the Power Profiles book only the individuals, I can´t find the flaw, can you please tell me in wich one can I find it if any?

JDRook wrote: 3rd degree conditions are always the most powerful and usually the focus of the power being built, so I don't think limiting it to that should make it cost far less than half the usual. A better example might be Limited Degree 2 for a first degree condition like Dazed or Impaired. It's debatable whether you could limit it to a single 2nd degree condition, like say Prone, but I think that's more reasonable than a full -2 Flaw for 3rd only.


You were probally right, then my example would be:

Sleeping Touch: Affliction (Resisted by Fortitude, Asleep): Limited to 3rd Degree
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Re: Sleep Affliction Feedback

Postby weirdal » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:12 am

I do appreciate all the information (I didn't see the actual Sleep power -- I just went right for Affliction -- so I appreciate that).

My big issue is trying to understand how Extra Condition works and how that can be used to, more efficiently, put someone to sleep.

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Re: Sleep Affliction Feedback

Postby Onion Bubs » Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:25 am

Hellhound wrote:
JDRook wrote:I don't think that's how it works, at least not with 3rd degree Conditions, since they introduced a separate Flaw in the Power Profiles for "Limited to 3rd Degree -1".


I don´t have the Power Profiles book only the individuals, I can´t find the flaw, can you please tell me in wich one can I find it if any?

It was introduced in the Mental Power Profile I think.
weirdal wrote:My big issue is trying to understand how Extra Condition works and how that can be used to, more efficiently, put someone to sleep.

I don't think it can more efficiently put someone to sleep. At best, you might be able to make it equally efficient. Extra condition just means that each degree inflicts two conditions instead of one (thus 1 degree of failure inflicts two 1st degree conditions, 2 degrees of failure, two 2nd degree conditions, etc.).

And by the way, if your affliction causes Impaired, this does not automatically upgrade to Disabled or Unaware on more degrees of failure. Your affliction only inflicts what it says it inflicts.

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Re: Sleep Affliction Feedback

Postby JDRook » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:54 am

weirdal wrote:My big issue is trying to understand how Extra Condition works and how that can be used to, more efficiently, put someone to sleep.

Regarding Extra Condition, the way I think of it is that default Affliction has a "stream" of 3 conditions, one for each degree. Fatigued/Exhausted/Asleep is a Sleep stream; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated is a Stun stream; Entranced/Compelled/Controlled is a Mind Control stream, etc. Most of these are carryovers from 2nd Edition M&M before Affliction existed: the creation of Affliction combined about 9 different 2e power structures into one effect. You don't have to build them exactly like the old powers, but 9 times out of 10 it'll give you want you want.

Extra Condition just adds another stream to the Affliction. The trick with bringing in second streams, though, is that the 3rd degrees for each when combined often gain no benefit over one; you can't Control someone who is Incapacitated, for instance, so you don't often see two Affliction streams with 2 different 3rd degree conditions.

The most common use of Extra Condition is for the Snare Effect, which uses Hindered/Immobile to slow or stop the target, and Vulnerable/Defenseless to make them easier to hit. This is usually combined with the Limited Degree effect so it has no 3rd degree, which also counters the cost of the Extra Condition. This is used for all kinds of snaring or entangling powers: nets, bolos, plant control, force field capture systems, etc.

As for "more efficiently putting someone to sleep", it depends on what you mean by efficiency. Your first build from about actually works alright, up to a point.
weirdal wrote:Sleeping Touch: Affliction (Resisted by Will, Impaired and Hindered, Defenseless and Stunned), Extra Condition, Limited Degree.

In practice, a touched target who failed by one degree would be slowed down a bit, moving at half speed (-1 rank) and taking a -2 penalty on all checks, which is a pretty good way to simulate grogginess. 2nd degree failure would leave the target unable to defend itself effectively (Defenses drop to 0) or take any significant action, which also sounds good for impending sleep, but don't forget that 1st and 2nd degree conditions are resisted by the target at the end of every turn, so they could break out of this sleepiness during combat. Also, this 2nd degree would not keep the target from sensing what's happening (still Aware), and arguably still on their feet, so they never actually fall asleep.

If efficiency means lower power cost, Extra Condition will probably not get you there. If it means effectively knocking a target completely out of combat with less than a 3rd degree condition, you can get close but not quite. The 2nd degree effect of your build would leave a target as a sitting duck in the middle of combat, but even a minion would get resistance checks every turn unless something else (like an ally) takes the target down, which should be pretty easy at that point.

tl;dr - your first build for Sleep Touch would make a target sleepy, but not fall asleep. The second one uses Limited Degree wrong.
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