Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

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Jhyarelle
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Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Jhyarelle » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:41 pm

I understand that the surprise round is when the hero or villain get the jump on each other. Also when you are caught surprise you halve your active defense for the attack. Does that mean your total Defense right?

Ex: PL 10

Stats:
Agility 5
Fight 5

Def: +5 Dodge, +5 Parry, +10 PL 10
Dodge (Agility) 20
Parry (Fight) 20

This Guy's surprised active defense is 10 right?

If you have Hide in Plain Sight advantage and Move By Action vs a group, can't you hide, surprise attack a target, and hide again? Rinse repeat and have your foes at half defense.
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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Monolith » Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:26 pm

Jhyarelle wrote:Def: +5 Dodge, +5 Parry, +10 PL 10

First let me say that your pl has nothing to do with that +10 value. The character's dodge and parry are 10, not 20. The +10 value only comes into affect when someone tries to attack you. It is essentially the defender taking 10 on their resistance value. So if someone's dodge is 10 anyone attacking them needs to roll a 20 or higher to hit them.

Surprise makes you vulnerable. Vulnerable reduces your base dodge and parry in half. So your character with the 10 dodge and 10 parry would be reduced to 5 when vulnerable. That means someone would need to roll a 15 or higher to hit them rather then a 20.

As far as hide in plain sight, it requires a stealth check, and that can require a move action. It's really going to end up being a gm's call if they will allow the check as a free action. Stealth doesn't always guarantee surprise, though. The target still get perceptions checks against your stealth to detect you. It's not an automatic success. All hide in plain sight does is remove the need for a distraction. In every other way it still just functions like normal stealth.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Hellhound » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:32 am

Jhyarelle wrote:If you have Hide in Plain Sight advantage and Move By Action vs a group, can't you hide, surprise attack a target, and hide again? Rinse repeat and have your foes at half defense.


The Move by Action is only for movement not for Move Actions, this means that is only for move to pont A to Point B Made an standard action and move again. It is not to have two Move Actions
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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Jhyarelle » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:46 am

Hellhound wrote:
Jhyarelle wrote:If you have Hide in Plain Sight advantage and Move By Action vs a group, can't you hide, surprise attack a target, and hide again? Rinse repeat and have your foes at half defense.


The Move by Action is only for movement not for Move Actions, this means that is only for move to pont A to Point B Made an standard action and move again. It is not to have two Move Actions


Ok. Say you start hidden, move half you speed and attack a target halving their active defense, move the rest of your total remaining speed away away form the target and spend a move action to hide? Does that mean its possible to surprise attack opponents every round, barring being spotted?

Cause you can have a move action and a standard action in your turn.

Its like how tactical positioning like in the Batman Arkam games.
If not, how do you pull off the things he can do in the game and not just because he's BATMAN...LOL
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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Monolith » Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:16 am

I think you're confused how a move-by works. You get a standard action and a move action per turn. With move-by you can divide your movement distance to some before and some after an attack but it still takes you entire move action to do that. So doing the move-by is your move action and doing the attack is your standard action. At that point your turn is over as you have no additional actions left to use.

You need to remember that you can use extra effort to get another action. So maybe Bats does a move-by, attacks, and then does extra effort action to get another move action to hide. So Bats can be as cool as he wants as long as he wants to deal with the fatigue or use up his hero points. Plus sometimes Bats is just getting behind cover at the end of his move action rather then using concealment/stealth. And it's not like he needs the surprise bonus to take out mooks and minions in a building, anyway.

And even then the target is going to get perception checks as per the stealth skill and hiding.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Onion Bubs » Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:29 pm

Jhyarelle wrote:
Hellhound wrote:
Jhyarelle wrote:If you have Hide in Plain Sight advantage and Move By Action vs a group, can't you hide, surprise attack a target, and hide again? Rinse repeat and have your foes at half defense.


The Move by Action is only for movement not for Move Actions, this means that is only for move to pont A to Point B Made an standard action and move again. It is not to have two Move Actions


Ok. Say you start hidden, move half you speed and attack a target halving their active defense, move the rest of your total remaining speed away away form the target and spend a move action to hide? Does that mean its possible to surprise attack opponents every round, barring being spotted?

Cause you can have a move action and a standard action in your turn.

The bit where you move half your speed and the bit where you move the rest of your total remaining speed? That's your move action.

The bit where you attack a target with half its active defence? That's your standard action.

This means, unless you can hide as a free action somehow, you don't have enough actions left to hide.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Kyle » Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:44 pm

Jhyarelle wrote:Its like how tactical positioning like in the Batman Arkam games.
If not, how do you pull off the things he can do in the game and not just because he's BATMAN...LOL

If you want to use the Arkham games as an example to illustrate how Move-by Action and Hide in Plain Sight can interact, I think it works fairly well.

When you enter one of the "predator" rooms in an Arkham game, the best strategy is to try and take out as many of the goons -- which would be Minions in M&M terms -- as you can without getting spotted. To do that you move around using the environment -- conveniently placed interior gargoyles, ventilation ducts that don't seem to actually vent anywhere, etc. -- to move around, picking the goons off, one by one.

So long as Batman is able to take out each goon without getting spotted by the others, he remains hidden. However, if you're like me -- impatient and kinda terrible at video games -- quite frequently you will be seen by another thug or three while knocking out one of their buddies, and then it becomes a mad scramble to get hidden again before they shoot Batman full of holes.

In M&M terms, Batman would be using Move-by Action to approach and K.O. a goon before grapneling out of sight to another interior gargoyle with the last of his movement. So long as he remains unseen, there's no need for Batman to re-roll a Stealth check, because the remaining thugs don't know where he is even if they're able to see his handiwork.

If spotted though, Batman has to use the remaining movement from his Move-by Action to get to at least partial Concealment. The goons are still able to attack him until the start of his next turn, at which point Batman uses Hide in Plain Sight to make a Stealth roll so they can no longer see him, and he then proceeds about the business of giving concussions to morons in clown masks.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Jhyarelle » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:32 am

Kyle wrote:
Jhyarelle wrote:Its like how tactical positioning like in the Batman Arkam games.
If not, how do you pull off the things he can do in the game and not just because he's BATMAN...LOL

If you want to use the Arkham games as an example to illustrate how Move-by Action and Hide in Plain Sight can interact, I think it works fairly well.

When you enter one of the "predator" rooms in an Arkham game, the best strategy is to try and take out as many of the goons -- which would be Minions in M&M terms -- as you can without getting spotted. To do that you move around using the environment -- conveniently placed interior gargoyles, ventilation ducts that don't seem to actually vent anywhere, etc. -- to move around, picking the goons off, one by one.

So long as Batman is able to take out each goon without getting spotted by the others, he remains hidden. However, if you're like me -- impatient and kinda terrible at video games -- quite frequently you will be seen by another thug or three while knocking out one of their buddies, and then it becomes a mad scramble to get hidden again before they shoot Batman full of holes.

In M&M terms, Batman would be using Move-by Action to approach and K.O. a goon before grapneling out of sight to another interior gargoyle with the last of his movement. So long as he remains unseen, there's no need for Batman to re-roll a Stealth check, because the remaining thugs don't know where he is even if they're able to see his handiwork.

If spotted though, Batman has to use the remaining movement from his Move-by Action to get to at least partial Concealment. The goons are still able to attack him until the start of his next turn, at which point Batman uses Hide in Plain Sight to make a Stealth roll so they can no longer see him, and he then proceeds about the business of giving concussions to morons in clown masks.


This helps out a lot and make a more sense to at least. Thank you so much.

Kyle wrote:If spotted though, Batman has to use the remaining movement from his Move-by Action to get to at least partial Concealment.


I take it that dropping smoke bomb is another standard action thus can't be done right? So say the rest of your movement from Move By Action is impaired, smoke bombing for concealment is a no go. But you technically extra effort for it right?
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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Monolith » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:27 am

Smoke bombs are a standard action. If you want to toss a smoke bomb, move, and then attack in the same turn you'd need to use extra effort action to get the second standard action.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Kyle » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:43 am

Jhyarelle wrote:I take it that dropping smoke bomb is another standard action thus can't be done right? So say the rest of your movement from Move By Action is impaired, smoke bombing for concealment is a no go. But you technically extra effort for it right?

Strict rules as written, it would require a move action to retrieve the smoke-bomb from the utility belt -- unless Batman has the Quick Draw Advantage, which I think it's fairly safe to assume he would -- and a standard action to activate the smoke bomb. So yeah, even with Quick Draw, Batman's player would need to take Extra Effort to include a smoke bomb in the same turn as a Move-by Action and an attack.

However, seeing as there isn't really any functional difference between moving into Concealment and creating Concealment with a smoke bomb, I don't see any reason why a more flexible, narratively focused GM wouldn't allow it. If the end result -- i.e. Batman's in Concealment and can make a Stealth check to hide next turn -- doesn't change, then why not? Rule of cool and all that.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Flying Cobra » Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:25 am

One of the Gadget Guides even builds smoke bombs as Enhanced Advantage (Hide in Plain Sight), removing the need for any additional actions.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Kyle » Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:02 am

That wouldn't remove the need for additional actions, it would just allow the character to use the Hide in Plain Sight Advantage without having it. Or, more accurately, it's a cheap way for the character to purchase Hide in Plain Sight, with the limitations specific to equipment.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby Greyman » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:05 pm

Jhyarelle wrote:I understand that the surprise round is when the hero or villain get the jump on each other. ...
If you have Hide in Plain Sight advantage and Move By Action vs a group, can't you hide, surprise attack a target, and hide again? Rinse repeat and have your foes at half defense.
To be clear:
  • If you are not surprised in the Surprise Round, you can only take one standard action and free actions. A Move-By Attack requires both a move and standard action to perform.
  • However, if you are not in the Surprise Round, you can still make a Surprise Attack using stealth and concealment, or other maneuvers.
  • When using Stealth to remain hidden, you can move at your speed rank minus 1 with no penalty to your Stealth roll. Moving faster than that imposes a -5 circumstantial penalty. This is the total before and after the attack when using Move-By.
  • A G.M. may impose cumulative circumstantial penalties for pulling this stunt repeatedly in an encounter.
  • When dealing with a room full of Minions, consider using Takedown instead of (or in addition to) Move-By.

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby ican » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:14 am

How would you deal with Surprise attacks were the player feels that every one of their attacks should be a surprise attack? This would either be from a character using the already mentioned Stealth/Hide-in-Plain-Sight/Move-by-Action combo, or Invisibility (all senses), or Indirect Attacks. The rules leave these attacks open to a "may" cause a surprise attack, by what if the power was built not as a "may" but a "does" cause surprise attacks.

Would a perception DC need to be established for each type of attack trying to invoke a surprised condition (for attacks after combat has started)?

As Greyman mentioned A GM may impose cumulative circumstantial penalties for repeated attempts in an encounter. Would this maybe include giving perception bonuses after each new attack or is something else better?

I'm hoping to find a solution that doesn't hinder the player, but also doesn't abuse surprise attacks (making everyone easy to hit, always).

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Re: Multiple Surprise attacks in the combat encounter.

Postby digitalangel » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:19 am

Suprise attacks, especially combined with multiple ranks of sneak attack, are exactly what makes a character who specializes in stealth (hide in plain sight, high stealth, various forms of concealment and/or sensory afflictions) a threat.

I agree that after trying the same trick over and over against the same (group of) opponent(s) that I would give the opponents an increasing bonus to perception against the character's attacks unless they came up with something new. Depending on that something it might not suffer from the perception bonus the opponent had buyilt up against them, get HP or maybe both if it was truly impressive.

You never want a player to feel penalized for doing exactly what the character is designed for, but you don't want them to go hog wild either.

Remember that the other side can have tricks of thier own, especially if they have faced each other before. Darkness effects get cancelled by night vision (natural or tech based), invisibility by enhanced hearing/infrared/radar, visual dazzles get countered by flash goggles, etc.
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