silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Monolith » Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:29 pm

Cryptic was a typo, as I was typing on 2 different forums at the same time.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I'm simply saying that virtually nothing in this game fits within the real of realism. M&M puts out a lot of benchmarks and then never follows any of them; none of their characters adhere to those benchmarks. In the scheme of things each player will need to decide what they want to change to fit their own ideologies, but you shouldn't expect everything in the game to be built to your ideology.

As for why the chart is there? I have no idea. Most of the fans don't follow it. I can go into roll call and see hundreds of marvel builds that don't adhere to the 100 ton rule, but rather are built with ranks rather then the arbitrary scale listed in the book. Saying Batman and every other normal character can only run 2 mph is stupid. None of it makes sense if you're just look at the numbers on the chart.

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Doresh » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:11 pm

Well, the "7 is human maximum" comes from 2nd edition, where this would've been an attribute score of 24. Lifting capacity grows a lot faster in 3rd edition, so the new maximum for Strength and Stamina would be around 5 now (which the books actually follows AFAIK).

And Batman can run A LOT faster than that. With a successful Athletics check and by using two Move actions, he can reach 16 mph in no time. Not quite as fast as Usain Bolt (that would require Extra Effort), but it's not too shabby.

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Monolith » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:38 pm

Doresh wrote:And Batman can run A LOT faster than that. With a successful Athletics check and by using two Move actions, he can reach 16 mph in no time. Not quite as fast as Usain Bolt (that would require Extra Effort), but it's not too shabby.

The chart has nothing to do with double move action. The system used on the chart is exclusive of double move actions. The chart uses rank +9 to determine mph, not double move actions.

Also, Batman would need to make 2 athletic checks to do a double move. And if you do that math rather then using the chart the double move action would only be about 13.6 mph; and that would be sprinting, where the human maximum is 27.79 mph.

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby JDRook » Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:50 pm

Well, if you want to get that detailed: viewtopic.php?p=927200#p927200

And for the record, Athletic checks are good for the whole round, so both moves in a single round would benefit from one roll.
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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Kinematics » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:34 pm

Monolith wrote:Does it make sense that Batman can throw someone 120 feet or that he can run around carrying 800 without any penalties?


My own review of the thrown item equation has convinced me that it consistently overestimates the thrown distance rank by 2, perhaps 3 points (3 seems more realistic, but 2 is adequate). So subtract 2 (or 3) from the Str-Mass result and you have a reasonable value.

And then there's jumping/leaping, which seems like a complete failure to apply the system mechanics properly and logically...

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby FuzzyBoots » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:54 pm

On a side note, I seem to remember that, back in 2E, there was a discussion that the MPH listing of vehicles was indeed their double-move value. It's the speed that you can travel if all you're doing is moving. Trying to shoot at the same time as doing a Move action involves Drive checks and possibly a penalty on the action. *shrug* But, by RAW, you can make the full Move action value with your speed and then expend a Standard, or spend another Move action. In 2E, you could even move All-Out with the risk that your car might become "Fatigued" in the process as you started overheating the engine and/or blowing seals.

Frankly, the jet fighter speed was probably an error, and one you can fix in your own game. There were a number of conversion issues between 2E and 3E, and some of the values weren't quite correct in 2E either.

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Monolith » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:20 pm

JDRook wrote:Well, if you want to get that detailed: viewtopic.php?p=927200#p927200

That example has you using extra effort twice in 1 round. Assuming the character had a hero point he'd be fatigued in round 2 and unable to keep running at even the athletic speed; as the athletic check would need to be made just to run at normal speed.

And for the record, Athletic checks are good for the whole round, so both moves in a single round would benefit from one roll.

I see nothing in the book that states an athletic check is good for the whole round. An athletic check is needed for each action taken in the round as they are independent segments of the round, not a singular thing.

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Monolith » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:22 pm

Kinematics wrote:
Monolith wrote:Does it make sense that Batman can throw someone 120 feet or that he can run around carrying 800 without any penalties?


My own review of the thrown item equation has convinced me that it consistently overestimates the thrown distance rank by 2, perhaps 3 points (3 seems more realistic, but 2 is adequate). So subtract 2 (or 3) from the Str-Mass result and you have a reasonable value.

And then there's jumping/leaping, which seems like a complete failure to apply the system mechanics properly and logically...

I'm not discussing your house rule, nor looking for a new house rule. I'm discussing how unrealistic the existing rules are when you are using nothing but a simplified chart. That chart was a big mistake for the game, IMO, as it made things too generic.

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Monolith » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:23 pm

FuzzyBoots wrote:On a side note, I seem to remember that, back in 2E, there was a discussion that the MPH listing of vehicles was indeed their double-move value. It's the speed that you can travel if all you're doing is moving. Trying to shoot at the same time as doing a Move action involves Drive checks and possibly a penalty on the action. *shrug* But, by RAW, you can make the full Move action value with your speed and then expend a Standard, or spend another Move action. In 2E, you could even move All-Out with the risk that your car might become "Fatigued" in the process as you started overheating the engine and/or blowing seals.

Frankly, the jet fighter speed was probably an error, and one you can fix in your own game. There were a number of conversion issues between 2E and 3E, and some of the values weren't quite correct in 2E either.

Yeah, 2e had a lot more gradation on how movement was handled. 3e is just a vanilla chart stolen for the old dc game. :(

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Kinematics » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:48 pm

Monolith wrote:
Kinematics wrote:
Monolith wrote:Does it make sense that Batman can throw someone 120 feet or that he can run around carrying 800 without any penalties?


My own review of the thrown item equation has convinced me that it consistently overestimates the thrown distance rank by 2, perhaps 3 points (3 seems more realistic, but 2 is adequate). So subtract 2 (or 3) from the Str-Mass result and you have a reasonable value.

And then there's jumping/leaping, which seems like a complete failure to apply the system mechanics properly and logically...

I'm not discussing your house rule, nor looking for a new house rule. I'm discussing how unrealistic the existing rules are when you are using nothing but a simplified chart. That chart was a big mistake for the game, IMO, as it made things too generic.


Who said anything about house rules? I'm speaking only on how balanced and realistic the results are when applying the formulas to the charts.

On the other hand, I'm totally on board with the basic principals of how the charts work -- it scales consistently regardless of the power level. The problem is that they can also be consistently wrong if there's not a true equivalence across certain column combinations (eg: str vs mass vs distance), or certain things aren't accounted for (eg: size vs jumping distance, though that's partly because jumping doesn't use the charts at all).

The writers went for simplicity (str - mass) over accuracy when writing the formula, but that simplicity leads to problems when things just don't fit together right. It doesn't make sense, and feels like you're looking in a funhouse mirror. However, as far as I've been able to tell, it's mainly because of combinations that aren't calibrated properly, and not because of the chart system itself.

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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby JDRook » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:27 pm

Monolith wrote:I see nothing in the book that states an athletic check is good for the whole round. An athletic check is needed for each action taken in the round as they are independent segments of the round, not a singular thing.


Didn't cite my work. My apologies.

Deluxe Handbook, Chapter 4, p117 wrote:You can make a DC 15 Athletics check as a free action to run faster: one or more degree of success increases your ground speed rank by +1 for one round.


EDIT - and if you don't have the book, it's in the SRD under Running: http://www.d20herosrd.com/4-skills#TOC-ATHLETICS
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Re: silly question - Jet Fighter speed?

Postby Doresh » Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:24 am

Monolith wrote:Also, Batman would need to make 2 athletic checks to do a double move. And if you do that math rather then using the chart the double move action would only be about 13.6 mph; and that would be sprinting, where the human maximum is 27.79 mph.


The chart is for ease of play, not for simulationism. Having him run 2.4 mph too fast won't hurt anyone.

True, the human maximum is faster, but said maximum comes from the 100 m dash, where the athletes use up all their strength for such a small distance (aka Extra Effort). Batman could keep up his 13.6-16 mph a lot longer.

And seeing how the shady parts of Gotham City don't feature many obstacle-free straight lines (not to mention the likelyhood of car chases), I don't think Batman needs to become Usain Bolt. It'd be much more useful if he were to use more Parkour moves.


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