Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

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Jhyarelle
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Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby Jhyarelle » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:02 pm

As said in the PHB 3E pg. 143
Single Target: To use a Multiattack against a single target, make your attack check normally. If successful, increase the attack’s resistance check DC by +2 for two degrees of success, and +5 for three or more.


So using a shuriken (multi-attack damage 1) and you throw 5 shurikens at a target and hit. The standard toughness resistance for a shuriken is DC 16 [Damage 1 + 15]. How does the "increase the attack’s resistance check DC by +2 for two degrees of success, and +5 for three or more" apply?

1) Does this mean your attack check has to be at least two degrees over the target's defense to increase the target's toughness resistance of the shuriken damage?
Shuriken Damage DC 16 + 2 = DC 18 and DC 21 if more than 3 degrees?
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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby rlwr » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:48 pm

yes

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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby JDRook » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:46 am

One way to think of it is that Multiattack allows you to fire so quickly you are essentially Aiding your own attack. (Mechanically, they work almost identically.) You've thrown out a bunch of attacks (whatever they might be) and the target can't help but be hit by several of them.

Jhyarelle wrote:So using a shuriken (multi-attack damage 1) and you throw 5 shurikens at a target and hit.

No need to get too literal with the number of hits. A third-degree attack roll for +5 Effect could mean that you threw a dozen shuriken and most of them hit, or that most of them missed but managed to line up one or two shuriken to hit something vital. Remember that the damage is more abstract than in most systems: successful attack checks provoke resistance checks, but there's no guarantee that even a DC21 shuriken Multiattack won't get completely resisted by a good Toughness roll, which could be described as bouncing off hardened skin (Toughness or Protection) or rolling with the attack (Defensive Roll) or whatever fits the concept of the target's defenses.
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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby Jhyarelle » Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:08 am

JDRook wrote:One way to think of it is that Multiattack allows you to fire so quickly you are essentially Aiding your own attack. (Mechanically, they work almost identically.) You've thrown out a bunch of attacks (whatever they might be) and the target can't help but be hit by several of them.

Jhyarelle wrote:So using a shuriken (multi-attack damage 1) and you throw 5 shurikens at a target and hit.

No need to get too literal with the number of hits. A third-degree attack roll for +5 Effect could mean that you threw a dozen shuriken and most of them hit, or that most of them missed but managed to line up one or two shuriken to hit something vital. Remember that the damage is more abstract than in most systems: successful attack checks provoke resistance checks, but there's no guarantee that even a DC21 shuriken Multiattack won't get completely resisted by a good Toughness roll, which could be described as bouncing off hardened skin (Toughness or Protection) or rolling with the attack (Defensive Roll) or whatever fits the concept of the target's defenses.


I may have over thought what this might be. So please correct me if I'm wrong.

EX:
My Range Attack is +7
I rolled a 13 on d20
Total Attack roll is 20
Target's Dodge 10
I score 2 degrees of success on the target
The damage of shuriken is 1 or DC 16 vs toughness save
Target's toughness is 8
Irregardless of targets toughness, I scored two degrees of targets Dodge
So increase the attack’s resistance check DC by +2 for two degrees of success, and +5 for three or more do
Does this mean that the target's toughness 8 goes against shuriken DC 18 (Base DC 16 +2 for 2 deg success)
And toughness 8 vs shuriken DC 21 if attack roll does 3 or more degrees over target's Dodge?
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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby JDRook » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:50 am

Jhyarelle wrote:Does this mean that the target's toughness 8 goes against shuriken DC 18 (Base DC 16 +2 for 2 deg success)
And toughness 8 vs shuriken DC 21 if attack roll does 3 or more degrees over target's Dodge?


Yes, but just a few clarifications on your example:

Jhyarelle wrote:My Range Attack is +7
I rolled a 13 on d20
Total Attack roll is 20
Target's Dodge 10

Is that the target's Dodge rank or the DC to hit them? A character with Dodge 10 (a reliable average for a PL10 hero) is DC20 to hit (Dodge rank + 10) vs the attackers Attack bonus + d20 (7 bonus + 13 rolled in this case). However if it's DC10, that means your target has a Dodge of 0, which means they might currently have the Defenseless condition (possibly bound) or be completely unskilled in dodging or an inanimate object.
Jhyarelle wrote:I score 2 degrees of success on the target

This actually isn't quite right for either interpretation:

If target is DC10 (let's say an inanimate practice dummy) then a total Attack roll of 20 would be 3 degrees. It's a little confusing, but the essential rule is that the die roller always wins ties, so a total roll of 10-14 vs DC10 would be 1 degree of success, 15-19 would be 2 degrees and 20+ would be 3 or more. Each degree is 5 steps, but it's easy to miss when you start counting from a zero.

For a DC20 target (say a sparring partner on your team) a total Attack roll of 20 would be a tie, and therefore 1 degree of success.

Versus the dummy with Toughness 8 (let's say it's an upright block of wood roughly 3 feet thick with some padding on it to take the abuse of training), the Shuriken would be DC15 + 1 Damage + 5 for three degrees of accuracy with Multiattack for a total of DC21. The GM would add the Toughness 8 to a resistance check vs DC21. If the die roll was 13 for a total roll of 21, that would be a tie and the dummy would take no Damage Conditions. The GM could decide that since it's inanimate,* it defends with routine checks (effectively an automatic roll of 10) and fails by 1 degree, taking a -1 Toughness penalty. The dummy rocks back slightly from the force of multiple hits as the stars bite through the padding and embed in the wood. Go pull 'em out. :mrgreen:

Versus a sparring partner with Toughness 8 (Dodge 10 and Tou 8 is PL9 defensively, so let's assume it's a particularly tough martial artist working on his Ranged Defense skills), the Shuriken is DC15 + 1 Damage + no Multiattack bonus for one degree of accuracy = DC16. His +8 to resist would mean he can succeed with a die roll of 8 and take no Conditions. Again, since it's sparring, he takes a routine roll for a total roll of 18 vs DC16. He deftly rolls back to avoid the hail of shuriken but one sticks in his gi, although it doesn't break the skin underneath. He plucks it out absently, determined to improve his mobility and not get hit again.

Hope that gives you a feel for it.


*there's actually rules for Finishing Attacks on Defenseless targets including objects, but I won't go into it here.
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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby Jhyarelle » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:26 am

JDRook wrote:
Jhyarelle wrote:Does this mean that the target's toughness 8 goes against shuriken DC 18 (Base DC 16 +2 for 2 deg success)
And toughness 8 vs shuriken DC 21 if attack roll does 3 or more degrees over target's Dodge?


Yes, but just a few clarifications on your example:

Jhyarelle wrote:My Range Attack is +7
I rolled a 13 on d20
Total Attack roll is 20
Target's Dodge 10

Is that the target's Dodge rank or the DC to hit them? A character with Dodge 10 (a reliable average for a PL10 hero) is DC20 to hit (Dodge rank + 10) vs the attackers Attack bonus + d20 (7 bonus + 13 rolled in this case). However if it's DC10, that means your target has a Dodge of 0, which means they might currently have the Defenseless condition (possibly bound) or be completely unskilled in dodging or an inanimate object.
Jhyarelle wrote:I score 2 degrees of success on the target

This actually isn't quite right for either interpretation:

If target is DC10 (let's say an inanimate practice dummy) then a total Attack roll of 20 would be 3 degrees. It's a little confusing, but the essential rule is that the die roller always wins ties, so a total roll of 10-14 vs DC10 would be 1 degree of success, 15-19 would be 2 degrees and 20+ would be 3 or more. Each degree is 5 steps, but it's easy to miss when you start counting from a zero.

For a DC20 target (say a sparring partner on your team) a total Attack roll of 20 would be a tie, and therefore 1 degree of success.

Versus the dummy with Toughness 8 (let's say it's an upright block of wood roughly 3 feet thick with some padding on it to take the abuse of training), the Shuriken would be DC15 + 1 Damage + 5 for three degrees of accuracy with Multiattack for a total of DC21. The GM would add the Toughness 8 to a resistance check vs DC21. If the die roll was 13 for a total roll of 21, that would be a tie and the dummy would take no Damage Conditions. The GM could decide that since it's inanimate,* it defends with routine checks (effectively an automatic roll of 10) and fails by 1 degree, taking a -1 Toughness penalty. The dummy rocks back slightly from the force of multiple hits as the stars bite through the padding and embed in the wood. Go pull 'em out. :mrgreen:

Versus a sparring partner with Toughness 8 (Dodge 10 and Tou 8 is PL9 defensively, so let's assume it's a particularly tough martial artist working on his Ranged Defense skills), the Shuriken is DC15 + 1 Damage + no Multiattack bonus for one degree of accuracy = DC16. His +8 to resist would mean he can succeed with a die roll of 8 and take no Conditions. Again, since it's sparring, he takes a routine roll for a total roll of 18 vs DC16. He deftly rolls back to avoid the hail of shuriken but one sticks in his gi, although it doesn't break the skin underneath. He plucks it out absently, determined to improve his mobility and not get hit again.

Hope that gives you a feel for it.


*there's actually rules for Finishing Attacks on Defenseless targets including objects, but I won't go into it here.


Sorry about that, I did not state power level of the example, but I understand it now.

Basic idea is Multi-Attack works this way. If my total out put (d20 + X Attack Bonus) is over by at least 2 degrees (10+) over targets total Dodge or Parry, the harder it is to resist the damage of the attack; thus the +2 DC to resistance check (Weapon Damage X +2 + 15). Right.

Now here's some other question related to Multi-Attack.

Since it is ranked, does multiple ranks of it stack for the purpose getting the DC bonus to resistance checks. Not bonus to hit, but bonus to get the +2 DC to resist the attack.

EX: PL 10
An attack with Multi-Attack 10
Attack Bonus 15
Target total Dodge/Parry 20
D20 rolled 6
Total Attack rolled 21
Only 1 success
Does having Multi-Attack 10 automatically give the attacker damage DC +2 to the attack but not give a bonus to hit?
Can other advantages and skills do this to like All Out Attack, Close/Ranged Combat advantage or skills?
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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby Monolith » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:32 am

First, in a pl 10 game someone can't have a damage 10 multiattack and a 15 attack value. That would make the character pl 12.5. :)

But for the sake of the example, if someone rolled a 6 for a total of 21 that would allow them to do 10 damage: it was equivalent to just a 1st degree hit. If they had rolled a 10 for a total of 25 that would be equivalent to a 2nd degree hit allowing them to do 12 damage: 10+2. If they had rolled a 15 for a total of 30 that would give them a 3rd degree hit allowing them to do 15 damage: 10+5.

So no, just having multiattack doesn't give you the +2. You get it for rolling well.

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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby FuzzyBoots » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:08 am

To clarify how Multi-Attack is a "ranked extra", it works like other extras in that, if you have less than full ranks, you can only apply a limited amount if you use multi-attack. So if you have Damage 10 (Multi-Attack 8), then you can either choose to hit for +10 damage and ignore Multi-Attack or you can try for the Multi-Attack and only be applying the +8 plus your bonuses from hitting well. You might also run into the "partial ranks" situation if the attack is Strength-Based and you don't have enough ranks of Multi-Attack to cover your strength bonus.

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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby JDRook » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:30 am

Jhyarelle wrote:Does having Multi-Attack 10 automatically give the attacker damage DC +2 to the attack but not give a bonus to hit?

Multi-Attack does not affect the Attack Bonus at all; MA only changes the Resistance Check of the power if the attack check is sufficiently high (minimum 2 degrees, or 5+ over the target's defense). This is the only instance in the official M&M rules where degrees of success matter for the Attack Check.

The ranks of Multi-Attack cannot be higher than the Effect they are modifying. They can be lower if you wish, as FuzzyBoots explains above. However, buying Multiattack lower than the base effect rank by 5 or more is useless in most cases.

Jhyarelle wrote:Can other advantages and skills do this to like All Out Attack, Close/Ranged Combat advantage or skills?

Not quite clear what you're asking here.
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Re: Help with the Muilti-Attack Extra

Postby FuzzyBoots » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:04 pm

JDRook wrote:
Jhyarelle wrote:Can other advantages and skills do this to like All Out Attack, Close/Ranged Combat advantage or skills?

Not quite clear what you're asking here.

It's possible that Jhyarelle is asking if there are other methods to bypass PL. At their base level, the combat skills/advantages cannot bypass PL. They can have different tradeoffs. All-Out Attack and Defensive Attack will let you trade off between offensive and defensive PL. Aid actions and Combined Fire can boost total attack bonus and damage at the cost of giving up your attack to aid a team-mate. Stealth and such can effectively lower your opponent's defense bonus. Favored Opponent and Favored Environment give you a small boost in your given circumstances. There's probably some others I am missing, but Paragon has an excellent post on Virtual PL which basically covers them.


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