Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movement

This is the catch-all forum, for Mutants & Masterminds threads that you're not quite sure where to put.
User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9719
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movement

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:52 am

The Mechanics
I will assume that everyone is aware that Acrobatic Bluff is normally a Standard action, but can be moved to a Move action for a -5 penalty that can be compensated for with a Challenge Feat. Still with me, right? Well, what if we allowed a further downgrade? A Free Action tactic that has in-game effects is probably a bit too tempting, even considering that they'd be accruing a -1 penalty to further checks against that opponent. But what if we only allowed it if they still spent that Move action, but also allowed them their movement? So a player could choose to use Acrobatic Bluff as a Move action and perform said bluff at a -10 penalty during their 30 feet of movement whereupon at the end, they can attack.

The Imagery
I would argue that this is something that happens in the comics. Harley Quinn, for example, will do a series of handsprings and cartwheels on her way to her opponent, befuddling them for the eventual strike. It describes one of the popular martial arts moves of running up to someone and then tumbling above/below/beside them and striking at an oblique angle.

The Comparables
In many ways, this works out to a Charge of sorts. Both 2E and 3E already allow you to, as a Standard action, make your full movement and then attack at the end. This differs in that it's not an attack, of course, and in that there's a greater penalty to the check for success and a greater potential benefit at the end.

The issues?
Obviously, this runs the same potential issue as a straight Free Action in that there will always be players who just spam it with impunity, even if it requires them to essentially be running back and forth like chickens with their heads cut off. And, for the cost of two feats, they can eliminate the penalty. And, as per Paragon's points on PL, someone with high Acrobatics can already reliably prevent an opponent from making use of their dodge bonus.

So, thoughts, anyone?

User avatar
digitalangel
Groupie
Groupie
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:45 am

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby digitalangel » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:08 am

Sounds cool and I agree that there are definately plenty of examples from comics and games of something similar being done.

Honestly why not just do agile fient as a move action and then do a charge? Like so many things in M&M the thematics and description is really just describtion of combining those 2 anyway, right?

If you really don't want to use charge for whatever reason, extra effort is always an option, do agile fient, move, and use extra effort for the attack. You take fatigue, that can be immediately bought off with a HP. This isn't something that I can really see being done all the time, and the HP spent to do it reflects that in game mechanics.

You could also just power stunt extended range onto your normal attack. So agile fient as a move action(acrobatics at -5), attack at extended range with power stint, and describe it as a crazy acrobatic sequence that takes you up to teh target, whack them, and then bounce away to (relatively) your starting spot again out of harms way before they can hit you back.
Image

User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9719
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby FuzzyBoots » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:27 am

All good points. :-P And I hadn't really made that connection to Charge despite me writing it right in my text.

User avatar
Doctor Devious
Heavyweight
Heavyweight
Posts: 521
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:28 pm

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby Doctor Devious » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:31 pm

All that acrobatic shindiggery could be just a descriptor for a high defence; no action of any sort required. That doesn't mean it couldn't be an action, but it doesn't have to be.

User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9719
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby FuzzyBoots » Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:05 pm

Doctor Devious wrote:All that acrobatic shindiggery could be just a descriptor for a high defence; no action of any sort required. That doesn't mean it couldn't be an action, but it doesn't have to be.

It's actually for an attack. :) Lowering your opponent's defense by getting them flat-footed.

User avatar
Hellhound
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:11 pm
Location: México

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby Hellhound » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:05 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:The Mechanics
I will assume that everyone is aware that Acrobatic Bluff is normally a Standard action, but can be moved to a Move action for a -5 penalty that can be compensated for with a Challenge Feat. Still with me, right? Well, what if we allowed a further downgrade? A Free Action tactic that has in-game effects is probably a bit too tempting, even considering that they'd be accruing a -1 penalty to further checks against that opponent. But what if we only allowed it if they still spent that Move action, but also allowed them their movement? So a player could choose to use Acrobatic Bluff as a Move action and perform said bluff at a -10 penalty during their 30 feet of movement whereupon at the end, they can attack.


Any character can make the Acrobatic Bluff as a Move Action an still move the 30 feet allowed because a Move action is in any movement mode available to you, so if making tumbling, cartwheels and handsprings is your movement mode, anybody can use it and then make the attack.

Also remember that if any one is more than 30 feet away a character can make a DC 15 Athletics roll for free, with success increase the Speed rank +1 (that´s it 60 feet for regular characters)

So I think you don´t need the -10 penalty
The treachery of demons is nothing compared to the betrayal of an angel.

User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9719
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby FuzzyBoots » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:21 am

Hellhound wrote:Any character can make the Acrobatic Bluff as a Move Action an still move the 30 feet allowed because a Move action is in any movement mode available to you, so if making tumbling, cartwheels and handsprings is your movement mode, anybody can use it and then make the attack.

Also remember that if any one is more than 30 feet away a character can make a DC 15 Athletics roll for free, with success increase the Speed rank +1 (that´s it 60 feet for regular characters)

So I think you don´t need the -10 penalty

I disagree with you on the first point. When someone performs an action other than moving as a Move action, they're forfeiting that movement to do the action (although, at least in 2E, they retain the 5-foot step if they've otherwise forgone movement. And, since I don't think that the Athletics check applies to extending movement during a charge, that doesn't really apply here.

*shrug* Ultimately, I think my answer is that the -10 fits in with the framework of how other skills, such as Stealth, deal with extra movement, but that it's slightly mechanically superior to Bluff at the beginning and then charge as long as you have a straight line and are willing to deal with the mechanical penalties.

Monolith
Superhero
Superhero
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:07 pm

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby Monolith » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:18 pm

I think I would rather see the player use extra effort action to get an additional move action over allowing a acrobatic bluff be reduced to a free action. It feels like if you let it go to a free action the correct method of buying the ability should be as a reaction affliction bought down to 1 degree of vulnerable only; possibly with instant too.

User avatar
Flying Cobra
Zealot
Zealot
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:02 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby Flying Cobra » Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:59 pm

What Monolith said. In the case of the Harlequin example, I'd probably toss the affected character a Hero Point for her performing that move.

User avatar
Hellhound
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:11 pm
Location: México

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby Hellhound » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:03 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
I disagree with you on the first point. When someone performs an action other than moving as a Move action, they're forfeiting that movement to do the action (although, at least in 2E, they retain the 5-foot step if they've otherwise forgone movement. And, since I don't think that the Athletics check applies to extending movement during a charge, that doesn't really apply here.

*shrug* Ultimately, I think my answer is that the -10 fits in with the framework of how other skills, such as Stealth, deal with extra movement, but that it's slightly mechanically superior to Bluff at the beginning and then charge as long as you have a straight line and are willing to deal with the mechanical penalties.


Well you can use it as you want, anyway BUT forget for a moment the Agile Feint, and think of a character who decides to run towards his enemy and makes a maneuver to get behind his opponent. isn´t that a move action?

Also the Agile Feint use Acrobatics Bonus OR Movement speed rank, so a Speedster Character It could perfectly move and perform the maneuver at -5 cause anyone can attempt to deceive as a move action by taking the penalty for the check on the trick, and then makes the standard action (at least in 3rd edition)
The treachery of demons is nothing compared to the betrayal of an angel.

User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9719
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby FuzzyBoots » Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:40 am

Hellhound wrote:Also the Agile Feint use Acrobatics Bonus OR Movement speed rank, so a Speedster Character It could perfectly move and perform the maneuver at -5 cause anyone can attempt to deceive as a move action by taking the penalty for the check on the trick, and then makes the standard action (at least in 3rd edition)

I had forgotten that it included the Movement speed rank. That said, I still don't think that this means "You can move and feint at the same time as a Move action" any more than performing any task as a Move action lets you move at the same time.

User avatar
Hellhound
Bystander
Bystander
Posts: 48
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:11 pm
Location: México

Re: Move Action Acrobatic Bluff (aka Agile Feint) as movemen

Postby Hellhound » Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:15 am

FuzzyBoots wrote: I still don't think that this means "You can move and feint at the same time as a Move action" any more than performing any task as a Move action lets you move at the same time.


Yeah, you´re right with that.

But I think it can be sone if we take as a guide a Charge (a standard action), wich a character moves her speed rank and and the end of the movement can make an attack with a -2 in the check. Also can be combined with a move action allowing anyone to move up to twice her speed.

Technically is move action + standard action, but you still can use your movement, So, I guess if a character use acrobatics charging as her movement and Agile Feint as a move action, and still wants to make an attack It could afford to roll with a penalty of -7 in the Agile Feint Roll.

Otherwise it would go right to carry out two Move Actions; the first to approach and the second the Agile Feint roll with a -5 penalty. If he wants to attack that turn would have to use an Extra Effort.
The treachery of demons is nothing compared to the betrayal of an angel.


Return to “General M&M”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest