Area, targetting and persistence of effects

This is the catch-all forum, for Mutants & Masterminds threads that you're not quite sure where to put.
monele
Henchman
Henchman
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:04 am

Area, targetting and persistence of effects

Postby monele » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:12 am

I've gotten confused with Area again lately, specifically with Sustained (and longer) effects.

Rules say "allows an effect (...) to affect an area". "The effect simply fills the designated area".

Admittedly, that's that way I've seen it used a lot, including things like force fields and "bubbles", such as Air Bubble from the Power Profiles:

Immunity, Affects Others, Cloud Area, Sustained.

From the description/descriptors, it's clear the idea is that the character creates a zone of air in the shape of a sphere. Anyone inside benefits from the Immunity effect.

Where it gets a little fuzzy for me is:

- This particular power obviously implies that if you get out of the air bubble, the Immunity wears off... possibly immediately or at the end of the round. But is that always the case with Area? Is there a difference between Effects such as Immunity or Flight and results of Effects as in the case of Damage and Affliction? Do some remain and other disappear?

- I get the feeling the bubble is not immobile and it's assumed you can move about within that bubble... but is that really a default? Clearly, being stuck where an Effect is and having the Effect follow you around is different enough for a Feature or Quirk at least.
One argument I saw once is that you can easily recreate the effect elsewhere next turn, thus "moving the effect"... but this would require the initial action and not just the free action from Sustained, right?

Finally, what if I want a power that does not affect targets based on the area they're in, but just how many they are... or maybe how much they weight? (some Effects actually include this, like Teleport). Would these be alternative Modifiers to Area? Can the usual multi-target modifiers work for this? (Split, Multiattack)

Monolith
Superhero
Superhero
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:07 pm

Re: Area, targetting and persistence of effects

Postby Monolith » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:54 am

Affects others is a complicated little advantage. I don't always like to use it unless the ability is something specific to the character. The issue here is that affects others implies you give the person the power and then they run off and do whatever they want with it. So you're not putting a big bubble of air in a room. You're putting air bubbles over everyone's head, and then they can run off and do what they want anywhere around you.

When I create a big bubble of air I just use immunity and area. If you're in the area you can breathe. When I want to give someone the ability to breathe I add the affects others. So you come into the area and now you have your own bubble of air that moves with you. I know it's not rules traditional, but why would you pay for an extra that's supposed to give people the ability, but only if they stay there? That's counter to the affects other description.

The bubble, as per the rules, is supposed to be immobile. I you wanted to be rules persnickety you can throw on a moveable advantage to the cost.

User avatar
FuzzyBoots
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 9719
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Contact:

Re: Area, targetting and persistence of effects

Postby FuzzyBoots » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:57 am

2E Ultimate Power allowed for choosing whether an effect was centered on a location (and didn't move from there while maintained) or on a target (and didn't move from there while maintained). I don't know if 3E retained that sort of utility.

monele
Henchman
Henchman
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:04 am

Re: Area, targetting and persistence of effects

Postby monele » Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:23 am

I realize something else with both Area and Affects Others: it's often hard to know which modifiers apply to what. Is the Effect an Immunity with Area that I can lend to others with Affects Others (so they can also apply Immunity to an area) or am I lending (Affects Others) Immunity to everyone over an Area specifically?

I'm starting to think Affects Others should be done as a meta-power containing another separate power. That way the Affects Others could have modifiers and the granted power could have its own.

Your example of the big bubble and the "personal" bubbles actually makes sense.

Aaah, but I just noticed something else:
p.139-140 (Area): "An effect must be at least close range in order to apply Area (personal range effects work only on the user by definition)"
p.141 (Increased Range): "Increasing the range of an effect from personal to close requires either the Affects Others or Attack extras"

So... Immunity being personal, if you want to apply it to an area, you need to make it Affects Others or Attack first, then apply Area... So Air Bubble is consistent with the base rules it seems.

Moreover for Close range Area effects: "the user is not affected by it (...) If the user wants to be affected at the same time, increase cost per rank by +1"
But admittedly, the example given is Healing, which is not a Personal range effect but Close range. I'm guessing Affects Others (+1) includes the user, as per the definitio of Affects Others compared to Affects Others Only (+0).

So... by RAW, Affects Others and Area just go together where Personal effects are concerned eh?

The bubble, as per the rules, is supposed to be immobile.

Can you point out where it says so in the rules? Been looking for this specifically.

2E Ultimate Power allowed for choosing whether an effect was centered on a location (and didn't move from there while maintained) or on a target (and didn't move from there while maintained).

I quite like this. Both definitely seem equivalent in usefulness and issues.


EDITED with better rules references and renewed analysis.

Monolith
Superhero
Superhero
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:07 pm

Re: Area, targetting and persistence of effects

Postby Monolith » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:49 pm

monele wrote:Your example of the big bubble and the "personal" bubbles actually makes sense.

Aaah, but I just noticed something else:
p.139-140 (Area): "An effect must be at least close range in order to apply Area (personal range effects work only on the user by definition)"
p.141 (Increased Range): "Increasing the range of an effect from personal to close requires either the Affects Others or Attack extras"

So... Immunity being personal, if you want to apply it to an area, you need to make it Affects Others or Attack first, then apply Area... So Air Bubble is consistent with the base rules it seems.

I'm aware of that. I just think it's wishy-washy. What if the person I'm trying to give air to is a foe who doesn't want it? I built it with affects others when I needed attack...

That's why I think it's just easier to limit attack and affects other to individual abilities and let area bypass the affects others/attack concept. If I make a big area of air then anyone in the area should be able to breathe it in a net-sum 0: friend or foe. :)

Can you point out where it says so in the rules? Been looking for this specifically.

I'm just basically siting the idea that area powers, like create, aren't moveable by default. I personally have no issues with them being moveable; or being moveable at the cost of a 1 pt feature.

monele
Henchman
Henchman
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:04 am

Re: Area, targetting and persistence of effects

Postby monele » Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:40 pm

I'm aware of that. I just think it's wishy-washy. What if the person I'm trying to give air to is a foe who doesn't want it? I built it with affects others when I needed attack...

Well, I suppose that's what power stunts are for, but I admit it creates a specific case on how Area affects things. Definitely debatable, or rather quite the matter of taste :)

Monolith
Superhero
Superhero
Posts: 2087
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:07 pm

Re: Area, targetting and persistence of effects

Postby Monolith » Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:07 pm

monele wrote:
I'm aware of that. I just think it's wishy-washy. What if the person I'm trying to give air to is a foe who doesn't want it? I built it with affects others when I needed attack...

Well, I suppose that's what power stunts are for, but I admit it creates a specific case on how Area affects things. Definitely debatable, or rather quite the matter of taste :)

Yeah, except when you're sustaining someone else's air and you need to turn it off because you're power stunting and don't have access to the base power any more. :)

monele
Henchman
Henchman
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:04 am

Re: Area, targetting and persistence of effects

Postby monele » Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:46 am

Another good point ^^;


Return to “General M&M”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests